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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
The glib reply of someone who is not interested in what the will of the people actually is but just that "their side" won back in 2016 when project fear was being bandied about.
Of course project fear looks a little closer to reality now so clearly you fear a confirmation referendum on the facts about something so monumental to the UK long term future.
It's a straw man argument this "how many referendums"
Clearly one more is needed on the facts and options available before stepping off the cliff edge.
But I can see why you fear a second one....
Fuckin' hell. You are seriously suggesting ignore the will of the people because clearly they were too uninformed to know what was good for them.
There can be another referendum, but ONLY on points connected to leaving.
Because LEAVE won and REMAIN lost. End of.
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Funny being lectured about the will of the people and what we were being told by people who were not here but "know what people were thinking"
Certainly not part of the "people" but very keen to speak in their behalf....
I also note how much you both fear a question being asked of the people which might allow them to change their minds.....
Nobody is "taking" away Brexit from the people. If they still want it they will vote for it.
And you really have no idea what Brexit they voted for and neither do I (that's part of the problem but you seem to magically know so congrats)
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Funny being lectured about the will of the people and what we were being told by people who were not here but "know what people were thinking"
Certainly not part of the "people" but very keen to speak in their behalf....
I also note how much you both fear a question being asked of the people which might allow them to change their minds.....
Nobody is "taking" away Brexit from the people. If they still want it they will vote for it.
And you really have no idea what Brexit they voted for and neither do I (that's part of the problem but you seem to magically know so congrats)
I am a British citizen so have just as much say as anyone. I also talk to UK people very regularly. So your silly argument can go straight in the toilet where it belongs.
I am not scared of another vote, I think it is a waste of time to ask a question that has already been answered simply because some sore losers cannot accept the original answer.
I dont need to know what Brexit they voted for, and no second referendum would answer that question anyway. What question exactly would you ask to find that out?
And if you do want to ask what sort of Brexit they want.... can I assume you dont want Remain as an option on the referendum?The official documents said it it was a "once in a generation' decison. Leave or stay. That is what People voted on. Very simple.They voted to leave. Remaining is no longer an option.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Funny being lectured about the will of the people and what we were being told by people who were not here but "know what people were thinking"
Certainly not part of the "people" but very keen to speak in their behalf....
I also note how much you both fear a question being asked of the people which might allow them to change their minds.....
Nobody is "taking" away Brexit from the people. If they still want it they will vote for it.
And you really have no idea what Brexit they voted for and neither do I (that's part of the problem but you seem to magically know so congrats)
Don’t agree with revote,but do with a lot of what you say above.
No idea where to from here!
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And I remain an NZ citizen with family and friends back home I speak to regularly.
But I know I am still not in touch with NZ politics the way I would be if I were there.
Anyways, I have said my piece and I dont really expect a different response.
Still haven't heard anything new other than "we were winners so suck it " I'm more interested in the impact this will have and how to manage that either by taking advantage or being brave enough to ask again.
Have waited for us to take advantage of it for three years, doesn't seem to be happening....
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
And I remain an NZ citizen with family and friends back home I speak to regularly.
But I know I am still not in touch with NZ politics the way I would be if I were there.
Anyways, I have said my piece and I dont really expect a different response.
Still haven't heard anything new other than "we were winners so suck it " I'm more interested in the impact this will have and how to manage that either by taking advantage or being brave enough to ask again.
Have waited for us to take advantage of it for three years, doesn't seem to be happening....
Of course that is all you have heard, it is all you want to hear.
Brave to ask again? lol
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Lol indeed
Have said my piece now and happy to leave it there as it is pretty clear we have different views.
Not particularly interested in degenerative conversation so happy Sunday/Monday all.
It's an interesting Brexit week ahead so will have to see what happens.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Lol indeed
Have said my piece now and happy to leave it there as it is pretty clear we have different views.
Not particularly interested in degenerative conversation so happy Sunday/Monday all.
It's an interesting Brexit week ahead so will have to see what happens.
Yeah you keep saying that..... but you keep posting.
There is nothing brave about a 2nd referendum, it would be a destructive and anti democratic move only supported by sore losers. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Lol indeed
Have said my piece now and happy to leave it there as it is pretty clear we have different views.
Not particularly interested in degenerative conversation so happy Sunday/Monday all.
It's an interesting Brexit week ahead so will have to see what happens.
Yeah you keep saying that..... but you keep posting.
There is nothing brave about a 2nd referendum, it would be a destructive and anti democratic move only supported by sore losers.and who says that it would swing back to stay? Just because stay are the noisiest doesn't mean they are the majority.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Lol indeed
Have said my piece now and happy to leave it there as it is pretty clear we have different views.
Not particularly interested in degenerative conversation so happy Sunday/Monday all.
It's an interesting Brexit week ahead so will have to see what happens.
Yeah you keep saying that..... but you keep posting.
There is nothing brave about a 2nd referendum, it would be a destructive and anti democratic move only supported by sore losers.and who says that it would swing back to stay? Just because stay are the noisiest doesn't mean they are the majority.
Could be a large element pissed off at how the remainers have held up the process. I suspect, the answer would then be for another rederendum until they get the result they want.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Lol indeed
Have said my piece now and happy to leave it there as it is pretty clear we have different views.
Not particularly interested in degenerative conversation so happy Sunday/Monday all.
It's an interesting Brexit week ahead so will have to see what happens.
Yeah you keep saying that..... but you keep posting.
There is nothing brave about a 2nd referendum, it would be a destructive and anti democratic move only supported by sore losers.and who says that it would swing back to stay? Just because stay are the noisiest doesn't mean they are the majority.
Say what?
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Lol indeed
Have said my piece now and happy to leave it there as it is pretty clear we have different views.
Not particularly interested in degenerative conversation so happy Sunday/Monday all.
It's an interesting Brexit week ahead so will have to see what happens.
Yeah you keep saying that..... but you keep posting.
There is nothing brave about a 2nd referendum, it would be a destructive and anti democratic move only supported by sore losers.and who says that it would swing back to stay? Just because stay are the noisiest doesn't mean they are the majority.
Ironic thing is that almost all polls show that remain would win. But then (and this is around London which is well skewed to remain), most peoples gut feel is that leave would win again.
One shift I've noted of late, is that of "showing your vote". I've read on this thread and seen elsewhere of people being embarrassed to admit they voted leave. I think now, people are more embarrassed to be remainers. Mainly because the govt clusterfuck is widely viewed as a remain fuck up.
As for vote switchers ... well, I know people in all camps. Although I'd have to say the larger camp is probably remainers switching to leave more than anything.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
I also note how much you both fear a question being asked of the people which might allow them to change their minds.....
Your argument would hold water if the Remain campaign (and Parliament) had made it clear from the start there would need to be a 2nd Referendum to confirm the outcome of the first.
Nobody is "taking" away Brexit from the people. If they still want it they will vote for it.
So basically, your argument is that Leave need to win 2 referendums while Remain only have to win one.
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I think the result of any second referendum would be irrelevant.
If Remain won, people who voted Leave wouldn't respect the result any more than Remain did the 2016 result. Any downturn in the economy or impact from EU legislation and they'd have a field day
If Leave won, I can't see the Remain campaign leaving it at that. I'd expect arguments for a 3rd vote as it's a major constitutional change which affects generations it needs a 66% majority - as has been suggested by Remain campaigners like Heseltine.
What I do find amazing is the almost total lack of debate or comment on the impact that a 2nd vote would have on the country as a whole and the damage to the democratic process.
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@Victor-Meldrew I don't think you are looking in the right places. There is debate everywhere, from MP's comments, PM's comments, journalistic editorials, opinion columns. Can't go anywhere without reading about it.
The argument from the peoples vote, is that what we are facing is not what people voted for. Which is kind of screwed up, as there isn't even a definitive to state exactly what we are facing! I get that argument if when have this plan, it is completely different to what the leavers sold to the people. There are then, parallels to 4 yearly voting whereby you vote a government in on their policies, then they do as you expect, or don't, and then you get another go.
But we aren't even there yet. So I don't even see what there is to vote for?
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@MajorRage There's tons of debate on why we "need" a 2nd referendum.
Must have missed it. Apart from a few "damaging democracy" cliches, I see minimal comment on how people would react and an assumption from Remain MPs that a Remain win would simply be accepted. Grayling made the point it would benefit the Far Right and was effectively shouted down. Here in Leave-voting Cornwall, the EDL seem to be quietly playing the Brexit betrayal argument
I think you can take a pretty clear view on what people voted for - primarily end of free movement, end of ECJ jurisdiction, ability to do FTAs. There are a number of ways to achieve that, but 2.5 years in, May hasn't allowed those options to be debated and all the effort of MPs has been on overturning the vote result or on the theological purity of No Deal. (I'm surprised that no-one's suggested the Swiss model)
But we aren't even there yet. So I don't even see what there is to vote for?
Indeed. What an indictment on our MPs
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There's a lot of talk on this thread about 'remain' MPs deliberately stuffing up the process and while I can't say that in all individual cases that isn't true It is quite misleading.
The main reason MPs are delaying decisions is that the options presented are not palatable. Simple as that.
May's deal is a dead dog and no deal is both undesirable and holds a risk level that MPs don't want to take with votersAs for all the winners and losers talk, that (as expected) totally missed the point that there WILL be friction and unhappy people when such a blunt instrument as a referendum is used (both originally and if a second one was held).
The concept that the winning side is the 'will of the people' when the will of a similar sized chunk of the populace is dismissed is at the core of the problems.
Comparisons with elections is apples and pears. The reason you have debating chambers etc at parliaments in political systems is precisely there for the will of the losers to have input, debate and the (rare) chance to overturn policy. If the 'winners' stray too far from their mandate the electorate will influence some of their representatives to change from within or vote against measures.
The simple argument in Brexit is akin to Denis Conner - get off the stage losers!
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@Crucial And all of the above is exactly why I've turned against May in a big way.
The MP's have been doing their job. She's been trying to push through something that is unpalatable. She's not listened to those that have been critical and when she's claimed she has and made changes, the attorney general has disagreed with her.
It's unbelievable that over the weekend, the murmurings have been that some will agree to her deal if she agrees to go. That just doesn't make logical sense for something of this magnitude, if the MP's are supposed to be representing the people, and not themselves.
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@MajorRage Something does seem really screwed up there in regards to a deal if she goes. Part of me thinks this is all an elaborate ploy to get a no-deal Brexit or another referendum (no idea which) but in such a way that they can avoid responsibility for making a decision and therefore shield themselves from the inevitable fallout.
So yeah, no leadership and politician self interest paramount.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit: @Crucial
@Crucial And all of the above is exactly why I've turned against May in a big way.
The MP's have been doing their job. She's been trying to push through something that is unpalatable. She's not listened to those that have been critical and when she's claimed she has and made changes, the attorney general has disagreed with her.
It's unbelievable that over the weekend, the murmurings have been that some will agree to her deal if she agrees to go. That just doesn't make logical sense for something of this magnitude, if the MP's are supposed to be representing the people, and not themselves.
Whilst I'm no fan of May and her handling of this issue (and the fucking election) I do think that calling this May's deal is not really the point. This is the EU's deal. She doesn't get to choose what goes in to the deal and what stays out, they do. Some would say that's a good illustration of what is wrong with the EU but in this instance I think it is just negotiating from a strong position. Their strong position is a direct result of our weak position and that is not down to May in the main.
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