The Education System
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="585792" data-time="1465429925">
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<p>He said he had that exact conversation and I was explaining that many people dont see it as a waste of time..,. but as a waste of money.</p>
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<p>My WT family down south think that it's both. A waste of time and money. I had that conversation with them at wedding last year and we both had to walk away from it. It came up again on FB, and I was shouted down from the rooftops.</p>
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<p>He drives a digger, she has good experience in admin that she doesn't want to throw away, even though after 5 minutes of speaking to her you can work out that she's very bright.</p>
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<p>It's infuriating.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="585796" data-time="1465431031">
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<p>My WT family down south think that it's both. A waste of time and money. I had that conversation with them at wedding last year and we both had to walk away from it. It came up again on FB, and I was shouted down from the rooftops.</p>
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<p>He drives a digger, she has good experience in admin that she doesn't want to throw away, even though after 5 minutes of speaking to her you can work out that she's very bright.</p>
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<p>It's infuriating.</p>
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<p>I was referring to borrowing to study for a year and then dropping out. I see that as a waste.</p>
<p>Although I also see borrowing to do a complete degree in fine arts/drama/gender studies etc as a waste as well.</p>
<p>If you want to 'find yourself' or 'experience life' and are happy to load up a hundred grand debt.... then university is IMO not the best option.</p>
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<p>On a slight tangent.. digger drivers are in huge demand. Easily get 50- 80 an hour.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="585799" data-time="1465432433">
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<p>I was referring to borrowing to study for a year and then dropping out. I see that as a waste.</p>
<p>Although I also see borrowing to do a complete degree in fine arts/drama/gender studies etc as a waste as well.</p>
<p>If you want to 'find yourself' or 'experience life' and are happy to load up a hundred grand debt.... then university is IMO not the best option.</p>
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<p>On a slight tangent.. digger drivers are in huge demand. Easily get 50- 80 an hour.</p>
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<p>I doubt he's earning that, as they continuously rant and rave about inability to buy a house, and are based in Christchurch.</p>
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<p>I see your points, and I guess I was on at something different. She was struggling to find a job, so I suggested to play the long game and upskill herself so could find a job, and a better paying one more easily. It was about then when the tirade started. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="585796" data-time="1465431031">
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<p>My WT family down south think that it's both. A waste of time and money. I had that conversation with them at wedding last year and we both had to walk away from it. It came up again on FB, and I was shouted down from the rooftops.</p>
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<p>He drives a digger, she has good experience in admin that she doesn't want to throw away, even though after 5 minutes of speaking to her you can work out that she's very bright.</p>
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<p>It's infuriating.</p>
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<p>I've been trying to let it pass but I no longer can!</p>
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<p>What is WT Family? Wider Training Family?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="585802" data-time="1465432966">
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<p>I doubt he's earning that, as they continuously rant and rave about inability to buy a house, and are based in Christchurch.</p>
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<p>I see your points, and I guess I was on at something different. She was struggling to find a job, so I suggested to play the long game and upskill herself so could find a job, and a better paying one more easily. It was about then when the tirade started. </p>
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<p>Yes... that would be infuriating.. the lack of logic would drive me bonkers. I would then have to say something.. and I would get 'that' look form the wife.</p> -
<p>Nepia: I think the many arguments "against" uni's and pro "tradies" were looking to redress the quantity over quality scenario that you too don't like.</p>
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<p>I get uni can teach you broader life skills / how to think, but is your opinion coloured by the fact you did post-grad. My personal problem with my own uni experience was precisely that (at under-grad level) it didn't do this. It became really obvious really quickly that they weren't going to roll out a visiting prof for a couple of weeks without asking you about their work, so targeting what you needed to retain was pretty easy. I found an arts degree pretty much an extension of school only with fewer classes and a pub on site.</p>
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<p>Nick MBA's are usually but not exclusively the domain of the knob-jockey.</p>
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<p>I'm not anti-academia. I'm anti the dumbing down of tertiary institutions at the expense of recognition of other paths. Someone said you basically need a masters to get anywhere these days - that is fucked up nonsense.</p>
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<p>Especially as they have just rolled out the first AI lawyer and have a medical tri-corder than can correctly out-diagnose 7/10 GP's. Beam me up Scotty! </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="585808" data-time="1465433667">
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<p>Nepia: I think the many arguments "against" uni's and pro "tradies" were looking to redress the quantity over quality scenario that you too don't like.</p>
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<p>I get uni can teach you broader life skills / how to think, but is your opinion coloured by the fact you did post-grad. My personal problem with my own uni experience was precisely that (at under-grad level) it didn't do this. It became really obvious really quickly that they weren't going to roll out a visiting prof for a couple of weeks without asking you about their work, so targeting what you needed to retain was pretty easy. I found an arts degree pretty much an extension of school only with fewer classes and a pub on site.</p>
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<p><strong>Nick MBA's are usually but not exclusively the domain of the knob-jockey.</strong></p>
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<p>I'm not anti-academia. I'm anti the dumbing down of tertiary institutions at the expense of recognition of other paths. Someone said you basically need a masters to get anywhere these days - that is fucked up nonsense.</p>
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<p>Especially as they have just rolled out the first AI lawyer and have a medical tri-corder than can correctly out-diagnose 7/10 GP's. Beam me up Scotty! </p>
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<p> Liked for this comment. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="585808" data-time="1465433667">
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<p>I'm not anti-academia. I'm anti the dumbing down of tertiary institutions at the expense of recognition of other paths. Someone said you basically need a masters to get anywhere these days - that is fucked up nonsense.</p>
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<p>If you want to get into the grad programs in the big financial institutions - it's pretty much so true. You can get into the back office on an undergrad, but you went get near the front desks without.</p>
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<p>You can of course, still work your way up, but that is much harder than it used to be.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="585814" data-time="1465434614">
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<p>If you want to get into the grad programs in the big financial institutions - it's pretty much so true. You can get into the back office on an undergrad, but you went get near the front desks without.</p>
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<p>You can of course, still work your way up, but that is much harder than it used to be.</p>
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<p>Our PM would have been fucked then....</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="585808" data-time="1465433667">
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<p>Nick MBA's are usually but not exclusively the domain of the knob-jockey.</p>
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<p>Only going on the sample size I've been given ;)</p> -
<p>I listened to a Ted Talk from current <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='
'>US Senator Ben Sasse</a>. He essentially says that most kids learn nothing from College and even though more people are going there, we aren't getting any benefit from it. He doesn't exactly come up with solutions though.</p>
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<p>I don't think I learned very much from university. It got me a decent paying job so that is good but I think I could have learned everything I needed to at university in about 3 months. When I left university, I actually started to read again and enjoy learning. The whole education industry just seems massively inefficient. University wasn't a great time for me for other reasons, so my thoughts are probably somewhat affected by that.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="585695" data-time="1465388441">
<div>Donsteppa
<p>I thin it's less private/technical institutions offer degrees in competition with universities and more they offer them in conjunction and develop curriculum that meet specific needs. As long ago as I was at uni (mid 90s) I had a mate who chose to do his accounting degree at Wintec as oppose to the Uni for the practical aspects and his at the time perceived lack of academic rigour. Of my bean counter mates (and there's lots of them) he's probably one of the top earners and he's adamant today he likely wouldn't have got through at the uni. But he hires new staff he likes to have a balance from both as he thinks it's good having different backgrounds and viewpoints. </p>
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<p>Some form of education can point people in their 'right' direction. I have an aunty who spent 30 years of her working life picking apples and doing other low skilled work before she did a counselling course at EIT because she was working as overnight stay person for IHC people. She went from the course, to a diploma to a Bachelors and then a Masters. She did this in her 50s because the opportunities to do so weren't available to her in her 20s. One of my cousins has done the same thing (if you go see a Maori counsellor in HB there's a good chance they're related to me) but she's only in her early 30s now but she was able to transition from shitty school to degree courses at Massey via EIT.</p>
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<p>I'm still slightly more cynical than you on why the Polytechnics (or as they rebranded themselves, Institutes of Technology ) introduced degree level courses. I'm sure you're right that there are benefits from their degree level courses, but when it comes to valuing the trades I'll stand by the idea that;</p>
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<p style="margin-left:40px;">Polytechnics rebranding themselves as ITP's and offering new degree courses, and AIT and Unitec each positioning to become a University*, was yet another subliminal message: even the traditional technical colleges think degrees are more important and are the way of the future - rather than the trades. </p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10px;">* Other newly rebranded ITP's undoubtedly would have tried had Unitec not been rebuffed</span></p>
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<p>(And yes, I do say that with two University qualifications that I'm very fond of on my CV )</p>
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<p>You raise another good point that sometimes bothers me. So much of the careers profession and wider information sources are (rightly) aimed at school students and school leavers. However, the danger is that can just become the default position for careers information, advice, and campaigns. Some of the most interesting students I worked with had worked in one career field for 20 - 30 years before taking three to four years out to retrain. Their reasoning often being that they still have 20 - 25 years left in the labour force at the end of their studies.</p>
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<p>As well as neglecting potential midlife career changers at times, it also inadvertently puts more pressure on people to "get it right for life" at the age of 17... when that's not the reality of the world for most people.</p> -
<p>I know someone who was at Unitec's QA Dept at the time they were trying to become a university.</p>
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<p>They very much wanted the prestige and dollars that came with university status and made it clear they had no qualms about ditching trade oriented programmes unless they could talk them up to degree status</p> -
<p>Firstly, I wasn't suggesting someone should just go to University to try it, but if there is something a student wants to try then they should do it. One semester isn't going to leave them with a crippling life long debt. Maybe Jegga can give us more insight but I think* the average new tradie can rack up a student debt too as they often have qualifications they need to obtain.</p>
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<p>* I've got a cousin who is a builder who had to do some training to even get in the running for an apprenticeship, I'm making an assumption that this is common but as I said Jegga (or other tradies out there) might be able to give us a better view.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="585883" data-time="1465451119">
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<p>I know someone who was at Unitec's QA Dept at the time they were trying to become a university.</p>
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<p>They very much wanted the prestige and dollars that came with university status and made it clear they had no qualms about ditching trade oriented programmes unless they could talk them up to degree status</p>
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<p>There's probably a bit of sink or swim in it to - the dollars are definitely the key. My school likely wouldn't exist if we hadn't transitioned to degree programmes and for certain subjects (Audio, Music, Film and TV) our graduates are highly valued by the industry (as they're practical). And quite frankly, the compliance that private/transitioning to degree institutions have to undertake is actually really robust - the level of oversight by regulators is much higher than what the original uni's get.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">I'm not anti-academia. I'm anti the dumbing down of tertiary institutions at the expense of recognition of other paths. Someone said you basically need a masters to get anywhere these days - that is fucked up nonsense.
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<p>I think that is more a reflection of a societal shift due to natural development. 200 year ago Universities were only for the extremely wealthy, 100 years ago it was the same but with the extremely bright as well, in my parents generation it was still really exclusive. But there was a reason for that, low skilled, semi skilled employment was numerous and well compensated for. Things have changed now, tertiary institutions teach a much larger range of subjects and skills to meet the demands of the modern world.</p>
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<p>TBC ...</p> -
<p>ITP's numbers are getting whittled down similar to what happened with the ITO sector, except there were a fair few more ITO's than we've every had polytechnics. There's a number of layers at ITP's with foundation level courses (free or low fee) then cert, dip, degree level stuff. Nursing is pretty big at a couple of places and trade is a key offering for most of them. Which you'd expect given post-quake plus housing pressures. Interesting conversations happening about how short a course is viable too. </p>
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<p>Totally agree there is a more academic or broader focus by several organisations. I guess they are going for a mix of more student fee income and less contestable funding. Overseas students are a huge market but that puts pressure on expectations of quality - don't want a Fonterra level issue for our education tourism bizo.</p>