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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
Yeah, if only he was one of those rightie dictators like Pinochet there'd be no misery.
You really want to compare left wing communist dictators with right wing ones?
I will start with 2..
Stalin and Mao. Death count in the tens of millions........ your turn.FFS, you really are a new level of tiresome.
Right and left dictators are as shit as each other, if you and your cronies want to flap on about the degrees of shitty-ness then go for you life.
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@Nepia said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
Yeah, if only he was one of those rightie dictators like Pinochet there'd be no misery.
You really want to compare left wing communist dictators with right wing ones?
I will start with 2..
Stalin and Mao. Death count in the tens of millions........ your turn.FFS, you really are a new level of tiresome.
Right and left dictators are as shit as each other, if you and your cronies want to flap on about the degrees of shitty-ness then go for you life.
Really isn't true, left wing dictators easily top the body count. Of course, dictators by definition are awful but you can't ignore the political leaning and it effect on the populace.
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@Nepia said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
Yeah, if only he was one of those rightie dictators like Pinochet there'd be no misery.
You really want to compare left wing communist dictators with right wing ones?
I will start with 2..
Stalin and Mao. Death count in the tens of millions........ your turn.FFS, you really are a new level of tiresome.
Right and left dictators are as shit as each other, if you and your cronies want to flap on about the degrees of shitty-ness then go for you life.
FFS you really are a bullshit artist. All mouth no substance. I am sure it is tiresome when people call you on your nonsense... but maybe you could stop talking nonsense?
There is no equivalence, left wing dictators have an order of magnitude higher body count, you can just ignore that if you like, but dont expect other to swallow your bullshit,
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@Nepia said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
Yeah, if only he was one of those rightie dictators like Pinochet there'd be no misery.
You really want to compare left wing communist dictators with right wing ones?
I will start with 2..
Stalin and Mao. Death count in the tens of millions........ your turn.FFS, you really are a new level of tiresome.
Right and left dictators are as shit as each other, if you and your cronies want to flap on about the degrees of shitty-ness then go for you life.
Then why on earth did you react to the wording "communist dictator" in the first place? That was plain weird.
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@Nepia spot on, but ideologues will attempt to seize on anything to "prove" they are right. In this case, Stalin and Mao means that right wing politics is better than left. Not often you get to hear something so blatantly stupid said in absolute seriousness, I suggest you enjoy it for the joke that it is.
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@reprobate said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Nepia spot on, but ideologues will attempt to seize on anything to "prove" they are right. In this case, Stalin and Mao means that right wing politics is better than left. Not often you get to hear something so blatantly stupid said in absolute seriousness, I suggest you enjoy it for the joke that it is.
I know this doesn't fit your world view, but it's just a fact that left wing policies taken to their extreme have killed many millions more people.
Not a controversial point at all, just history.
Dictatorships were just the mechanism in place to deliver those ideas.
This all started because Nepia bristled at the distinction of a communist dictator, claiming a false equivalence with the damage done by right wing dictators. Not even close.
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@reprobate said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Kirwan how did Hitler go?
He was comparable to Pol Pot, but an amateur compared to Stalin or Mao. He's also an outlier, can you name another right wing dictator that compared with these guys?
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@reprobate said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Kirwan if we're talking in single digits then they are all outliers.
So you can't name another one?
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If you have an x axis with Communism on the left and Fascism on the right, with modern liberal democracies in the centre - what is the x axis actually measuring? It's a meaningless arbitrary scale
Collectivism vs Individualism is a much more coherent scale
National socialism realised you did not need ownership of the means of production. You just had to have control over the means of production.
Communism would still be on the far left, Fascism quite far left and modern liberal democracies would be to the right of centre.
Damn these collectivist monsters and their apologists
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@reprobate said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Kirwan how did Hitler go?
He was also not a right winger. He was yet another socialist...
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I don't support Castro as being a paragon of anything, and while I can read through his policy beliefs and achievements and see some good left-wing policies among them, I dislike others, and think some of the methods were outright homicidal and evil.
More generally, I might be a leftie, but I don't support Trotsky-ism/Lenin-ism, don't believe that the ends justify the means (which is where a lot the elimination of opposition by any means necessary comes from in Lenin and Trotsky's writing), and don't think the state needs to own the means of production of everything. There is plenty of room for state/government intervention without killing political opponents, creating gulags or opening political prisons, and these are not exclusive to the political left. My macroeconomic preferences are closer to Keynes than Marx. Social democratic beliefs are not socialism, and the bulk of lefties are not communists or socialists.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@reprobate said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Kirwan how did Hitler go?
He was also not a right winger. He was yet another socialist...
if you actually think that, then you ought to do a bit more reading on the subject.
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@reprobate said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@reprobate said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
@Kirwan how did Hitler go?
He was also not a right winger. He was yet another socialist...
if you actually think that, then you ought to do a bit more reading on the subject.
I have read plenty about it thanks. He was a member of the Workers Party and then the National Socialists, it has been proposed that he was a 'spy' but that was never proven... and remains just a claim... quite baseless one at that. It is also claimed that he was not a socialist because he hated communism, but as history shows left wingers are never slow to purge other left wingers.
The reality is that he espoused MANY left wing views such as big controlling government, loss of liberty and personal freedom and govt control over both citizens and means of production.
If you had just stuck with claiming he was not a left winger you might have had a chance. But you seem to think he was right wing, which is a bit silly really given the party he belonged to, how he controlled the govt and the form the govt took. And that is before you even look at his personal statements on the matter.Such as
"German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx."""find and travel the road from individualism to socialism without revolution". Marx and Lenin had seen the right goal, but chosen the wrong route - a long and needlessly painful route - and, in destroying the bourgeois and the kulak, Lenin had turned Russia into a grey mass of undifferentiated humanity, a vast anonymous horde of the dispossessed; they had "averaged downwards"; whereas the National Socialist state would raise living standards higher than capitalism had ever known. It is plain that Hitler and his associates meant their claim to socialism to be taken seriously; they took it seriously themselves."
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@dogmeat said in Add Fidel to the 2016 body count:
Don't want to get dragged into this truly bizarre pissing comp but Catholic Church more than likely outdoes all dictators of any political persuasion - combined.
Who here has actually been to Cuba?
Dictators by different name, and weirder clothes?
RIP 2017
Hitler and the socialist dream
