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@Rancid-Schnitzel you implied that it was not possible for Muslims to be part of western society, 'when has Islam ever... assimilated'. i gave an example, known to all on this site, to the contrary.
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@reprobate said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel you implied that it was not possible for Muslims to be part of western society, 'when has Islam ever... assimilated'. i gave an example, known to all on this site, to the contrary.
I fucking did not. For Christ sake, read the entire discussion rather than cherry picking sentences that trigger you.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel okay, i guess I'm misunderstanding then
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@reprobate SBW is an interesting example. Obviously he didn't assimilate as he is from Auckland but putting that aside his recent actions indicate he is starting to go against aspects of Western life as he moves more towards the fundamental teachings of Islam. He went against his own team and employer by taping over their most important sponsors logo not because of some moral objection, but because charging interest is forbidden in Islam. He is now also associating with preachers like Menk who are on record as saying "homosexuals are worse than animals" despite gay rights being hugely important in NZ. It will be interesting to see where he is in another 10 years, and if his name is still Sonny.
And that is the problem with Islam. It's important to separate the people from the ideology. By that I mean Islam and Sharia Law are not compatible with Western Democracy and Western law. They are completely at odds with each other, and in my opinion (which is supported by a mountain of evidence) Western Democracy and Western Law are far superior.
The only way that Muslims are able to successfully assimilate into Western society is if they modify Islam to conform to Western Law. The people you call "moderate Muslims" are more accurately described as modifiers. They choose to disregard a lot of the passages of the Koran and by doing so do not accurately represent Islam.
I am very comfortable opposing the spread of Islam in Western countries, as 1) I (we) cannot rely on those that choose to follow the Koran to omit the abhorrent passages and 2) there will always, always be those that don't. Which gives rise to terrorism, pushing an idea through the use of violence and intimidation, which is one of the worst things imaginable when you consider what Western values are built on (I.E freedom of speech).
This is a great article that helps to articulate what I am talking about, I would encourage you to have a read:
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You called?
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@No-Quarter Good post NQ and an interesting article and I can quite see the logic in it. However, for me, the logic falls down when it states that the majority of Muslims that do not follow the Qu'ran religiously are not representative of Islam and cannot be considered true Muslims. Why I say this is that all things change with time and religion in particular has shown to become more moderate over time, certainly by the vast majority. To my mind the real representatives of any religion are the majority and as those that are on the extreme become a smaller (and often more vocal) group they become the extremists. Increasingly the extremists (not necessarily just of Islam) become even more radical and even further away from the bulk of the adherents of said religion.
The problem we seem to have with Islam currently is that the extreme are a significant bunch in numbers, funding and tacit support. There are also some mosques that are continual stirrers of hatred and there too high a degree of appeasement in this area.
The ongoing problem is how we deal with these extremists, their supporters and the hate preachers without alienating the vast majority of Muslims that are peaceful, normal people that follow a religion for themselves and not others.
By suppressing or persecuting a religion not only do we risk radicalising many more people but we also become what we are afraid of.
What the answer is and how we deal with the scum element I do not know. I do know that how the matter is being dealt with now is not working and also that the anti-Muslim rhetoric which is becoming more and more commonplace is even less likely to work.
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I'd argue we (in the west) should be clearly outlining the things that are no compatable with Western society and actively targeting them without fear of being brought up as non PC. IE if we clearly define that we are not cool with FMG, forced marriage, child marriage, spousal abuse (which in theory we aren't regardless of religion) then we target that agressively.
But only if combined with "agressive" tolerance of other aspects. IE a head scarf ban is fricking pointless & petty & does nothing bar stop women going out & make them feel persecuted. So anyone discriminating re that needs to be come down on like a ton of bricks, as does hate speech inciting that. You wont stop people muttering "Raghead" as a woman walks past them with her kids, but it can't be where we are heading where they feel they can shout it. Its no different to the way there are homophobes & racists around, but they have been supressed from shouting Fag or Nggr at people.
We are alas moving towards that being OK with regard to Muslims because they are all terriorists who don't assimilate, hate our freedoms & want Sharia.
The bullshit stories of no-go areas or Sharia being enforced are utter dross. Most of the things 99% of Muslims do day in day out is completely compatible with Western society.
Same as with Orthodox Jews, the Amish, Jehovas Witnesses etc, the Mormons (who used to like polygamy) - any of the slightly harder core religions.
We are in a bad place now in that we are moving towards persucuting Muslims for being Muslims, instead of persecuting the (small) minority who do stuff incompatible. And we are empowering a generation of ignorant bigots, which just pushes more people to the extremes.
Politically what needs to happen is recognition that not all Islam is the same and just because the Saudis & Qataris have lots of money & are our "allies" does not mean we should be green lighting wahabbism. In contrast as Nick noted an Ahmadi mosque is a HUGELY different beast from a Wahabbi mosque, and should be treated as such. Knee jerk populist polititans wont help this as their followers will simply see "Islam" as opposed to the variations.
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This post is deleted!
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@No-Quarter said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
It will be interesting to see where he is in another 10 years, and if his name is still Sonny.
Sunni Bill Williams? I'm probably late to the party on that joke.
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I do enjoy your awful dad jokes @Tregaskis, well played.
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@Catogrande @gollum all good points, and I do agree with you on the persecution of Muslims living in the west, it does not improve the situation for anyone. Which is why I am always very careful to separate the ideology from the people.
I often hear claims that the 'majority' of Muslims don't do A, B, or C, however while that may be true of those living in western countries, the majority of Muslims worldwide live in Muslim majority countries and when you look at all of the humans rights issues in those countries, like the subjugation of women, FGM, child marriage and the treatment of homosexuals, it indicates that a lot of the practices incompatible with Western society are actually widespread. And then there's the terrorism stuff.
I also don't see a lot of evidence to suggest there is any type of meaningful reformation occurring within Islam given the lack of progress in these areas.
I do acknowldge that there will always be idiots that cannot grasp the difference between Islam and Muslims, and will attack or persecute Muslims directly, but I am also deeply concerned when I see that Hirsi Ali, who is far from an extremist and is actively campaigning against FGM and child marriage, cannot tour Aus due to security concerns. Shutting down free speech with threats of violence is the antithesis of Western society - sheltering Islam from criticism is not the answer. I know there are other issues at play, but if we don't encourage an open dialogue about Islam, much like we have with Christianity, then I cannot see how any progress can be made addressing the problems with it.
The people that we should really be throwing our support behind are not so much people like Hirsi Ali, but more those living in Muslim majority countries that are calling for reformation of the religion - they are the ones genuinely putting their lives on the line and need all the help they can get.
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@No-Quarter There is little to argue with in that post NQ, but (there's always a but when someone is agreeing with you), the idea that the "majority of Muslims worldwide, live in Muslim majority countries where .... takes place" does not hold up too well. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country by population with just under 13% of Muslims living there (Source:Wiki). Third is India with just under 10%. Neither of which, as I understand have those issues as a matter of course. Bangladesh has over 9% of the World's muslim population - again not known for those more barbaric practices. Interestingly Saudi and Syria combined amount to less than 3%. For balance, Pakistan and Afghanistan are both known as areas where such stuff is practiced than they amount to just under 13% with Pakistan being the big one there.
The viewpoint is skewed somewhat by the percentage of feral Muslims, which is, of course a different issue.
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@Catogrande you must be new to the Fern, bringing facts and stats to the debate... sheesh.
Anyway I would counter some of that with:
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Indonesia is a fucking basket case of a country, with massive restrictions on the media and freedom of speech - particularly when it comes to West Papua. Not sure I'd be holding them up as a poster child for Islam.
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India only has a large Muslim population because India's population is fucking massive. They're 80% Hinduism so I'd probably scratch them off the list as parts of Sharia Law are unlikely to be applied widespread given they are not Muslim majority.
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When four atheist bloggers are hacked to death in Bangladesh and the governments response is not to denounce the attacks, but rather tell bloggers to use more restraint in their exercise of free speech, I'm not sure we can say they don't have some pretty serious human rights issues inspired by Islam.
Look, we're getting pretty wide in our discussion now and I wouldn't claim for a second that all of the problems in these countries are down to Islam alone, it's more complex then that with various socio-economic factors at play, but it does play a significant role in some of the worst practices you see.
I think we largely agree with each other, and unfortunately neither of us have really come up with any tangible solutions to the problem - my only one being waging a "war of words" via freedom of speech as we have with Christianity. But as @gollum says you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't be a politician that comes up with the answer...
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@No-Quarter Fairly new, about 14 years, but not known for bringing facts into the discussion.
You have valid points in all cases, no denying it. Common ground?
Common ground though, like common sense, is not really that common, particularly in this thread
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@No-Quarter said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Catogrande you must be new to the Fern, bringing facts and stats to the debate... sheesh.
Anyway I would counter some of that with:
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Indonesia is a fucking basket case of a country, with massive restrictions on the media and freedom of speech - particularly when it comes to West Papua. Not sure I'd be holding them up as a poster child for Islam.
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India only has a large Muslim population because India's population is fucking massive. They're 80% Hinduism so I'd probably scratch them off the list as parts of Sharia Law are unlikely to be applied widespread given they are not Muslim majority.
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When four atheist bloggers are hacked to death in Bangladesh and the governments response is not to denounce the attacks, but rather tell bloggers to use more restraint in their exercise of free speech, I'm not sure we can say they don't have some pretty serious human rights issues inspired by Islam.
Look, we're getting pretty wide in our discussion now and I wouldn't claim for a second that all of the problems in these countries are down to Islam alone, it's more complex then that with various socio-economic factors at play, but it does play a significant role in some of the worst practices you see.
I think we largely agree with each other, and unfortunately neither of us have really come up with any tangible solutions to the problem - my only one being waging a "war of words" via freedom of speech as we have with Christianity. But as @gollum says you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't be a politician that comes up with the answer...
Agree with so much of what you've said NQ - good discussion - ta
Must raise a point from my observations in Asia regarding your comment about freedom of speech and media regulations in Indonesia though. That phenomonen isn't so much a symptom of Islam but rather the SOP for 99% of Asian countries. It's my experience that the governence of all the SEA nations is run like that.
It's a characterisitic of the powerful to keep all the people subjugated and remain in power, especially with large populations, when it comes to freedom of ideas or criticism.
You did mention that here too - "I wouldn't claim for a second that all of the problems in these countries are down to Islam alone"
Those in power of Islamic countries that abuse and mutilate women, and minorities are dead set fluffybunnies though - but it works for them and as you said others in power from other areas don't seem to give a hoot, not if there's a buck to be made.
freedom of speech and the right to criticise is only properly practised in very view countries in my experience and observations
All religion slows down the human race in my opinion - but that's just a simple statement with no solution
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@Siam said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
I just realised nobody often mentions Malaysia in discussions about Islam and a western outlook.
Not flaming or trolling, just sayingAt the moment a place you associate with feral Islam , the Saudis have been over there lately spreading some cash around though so who knows how long that's will last.
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism