Waikato and the Chiefs
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@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
The way I'd structure it would be for a minimum of x amount of players to be selected from within franchise boundaries. NOT just from the host union, which appears to be how some have taken it. This would strengthen parochialism and in the case of the Chiefs in particular it would see a lot more Waikato, BOP and Counties players selected than has been the case in recent years. There were well publicised stats about the Chiefs in the last few seasons around the amount of players they had signed from unions outside their catchment VS the amount of players from the host unions. Who really wants that?? Since buying a couple of titles, what have the Chiefs achieved, and what's the damage been to Waikato? Meanwhile, look at the example of Whetu Douglas. Largely ignored by the Chiefs while they signed loose forwards from other parts of the country and even overseas, he's then lost to Waikato and in the meantime embarrasses both the Chiefs and Waikato administrations by performing outstandingly in a handful of games after being drafted in for the Crusaders. That's the kind of player who could still be around and strengthening both sides while maintaining more of a local flavour to the Chiefs.
Good to have you back Shark, looks like your time away has seen your dislike of Rennie and the Chiefs continue, but some of the bollocks in this post needs to be addressed.
Lets look at Whetu Douglas first - every franchise has overlooked players that have gone on to decent careers, it happens all the time. The Canes overlooked Dagg, the Crusaders let BBBR get away, the Canes missed Aaron Smith etc. Furthermore, if Douglas was as good as you're making him out to be a franchise would have picked him up as a squad member yet he was only picked up as an injury replacement - this was clearly the level that he was rated at the start of the season.
Now, lets look at your "buying a couple of titles" quip - I assume there was no way you said this with a straight face. The first two Crusaders winning teams could equally be seen as "bought titles" and the franchise used that success and a system you're advocating now to suck up talent from all over the country.
Also, have you seen the 2011 Waikato NPC squad that would have been picked from for the 2012 Chiefs? That squad wasn't great in a Super rugby sense.
The Super competition is for NZs best players, not for all players in a franchise home base. How many of these players would you have picked over the players the Chiefs picked for 2012? (I've crossed out those unavailable and put in italics those in the squad - which incidentally easily meets your 6 Waikato contracted players from your follow up post).
Armstrong Jono, Flanker 31.12.87 Te Awamutu Sports 1.81 101 0
Bradley Alex, Loose forward 30.09.81 Morrinsville Sports 1.90 114 20
Barnes Malcolm, Halfback 15.08.84 Hamilton Old Boys 1.79 85 18
Christie Sam, First five-eighth 26.09.86 Fraser Tech 1.80 92 16
Cummings-Toone Marcel, Hooker 17.07.84 University 1.82 106 0
de Malmanche Aled, Hooker 11.09.84 Hamilton Old Boys 1.85 114 52
Donald Stephen, First five-eighth 03.12.83 University 1.86 101 50
Ellison Andre, Prop 08.07.79 Hamilton Old Boys 1.82 119 1
Graham Romana, Lock 29.05.86 Hautapu 2.02 114 28
George Nathan, First five 13.06.91 Te Awamutu Sports 1.75 75 0
Grice Rory, Number 8 02.04.90 Otorohanga 1.75 110 0
Halai Frank, Wing 6.03.88 Hamilton Marist 1.95 105 3
Hohneck Zak, Loose forward 08.03.90 Otorohanga 1.85 105 9
Holah Marty, Flanker 10.09.76 Hamilton Marist 1.84 99 71
Kahui Richard, Centre 09.06.85 Te Rapa 1.90 101 35
Kerr-Barlow Tawera, Halfback 15.08.90 Hautapu 1.87 89 17
Lam Jack, Number 8 18.11.87 Hamilton Marist 1.88 107 28
Leonard Brendon, Halfback 16.04.85 Morrinsville Sports 1.82 95 43
Lynn Toby, Lock 06.10.84 Te Rapa 1.97 114 66
May Ben, Prop 13.10.82 Te Awamutu Sports 1.94 118 15
Malo Jono, Halfback 23.01.90 Hamilton Marist 1.79 86 0
Messam Liam, Loose forward 25.03.84 Hautapu 1.88 107 82
Middleton Chris, Lock 11.03.87 Te Awamutu Sports 1.99 110 2
Mikkelson Tim, Wing 13.8.86 University 1.91 102 34
Murray Mark, Midfield back 22.04.87 Te Awamutu Sports 1.86 98 0
O'Donnell Declan, Midfield back 20.11.90 Melville 1.86 94 0
Olsen Josh, Lock 16.04.84 Hamilton Old Boys 2.01 111 4
Renata Trent, utility back 13.05.88 Hamilton Marist 1.80 90 33
Robertson Glen, Utility back 20.02.91 Fraser Tech 1.86 90 0
Shuster Rena, Midfield back 16.11.80 Hamilton Old Boys 1.85 95 0
Sivivatu Sitiveni, Wing 19.04.82 Frankton 1.85 99 28
Smith Toby, Prop 10.10.88 Hamilton Old Boys 1.90 113 23
Speight Henry, Wing 24.3.88 Hamilton Old Boys 1.86 96 24
Sweeney Paul, Flanker 19.12.88 Morrinsville Sports 1.86 99 0
Talakai Latu, Prop 26.12.89 Fraser Tech 1.85 124 7
Tauroa Ted, Prop 19.12.82 Otorohanga 1.86 126 5
Tokula Savenaca, Wing 15.06.85 Fraser Tech 1.92 97 29
Tyrell Josh, Flanker 16.10.90 Hamilton Marist 1.93 104 0
White Nathan, Prop 04.09.81 Te Awamutu Sports 1.88 117 66
Willison Jackson, Midfield back 05.09.88 Hautapu 1.82 92 34
Vant Leven Matt, Loose forward 23.10.87 Fraser Tech 1.94 105 10TBH, I think if you look at the Chiefs 2017 squad you'll find that the bulk are from the 4 home provinces that make up the franchise, it's just that Waikato is no longer the strongest province in the franchise.
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@nepia Point missed? There are already 8 Waikato players in that squad. But how many were there a couple of years later? I'm sure you know as well as I do that there were more players from provinces -
from memory - such as Manawatu and Ta$man than Waikato in following years. I'm all about provincialism and tribalism throughout the NZ game, so for mine, that's wrong. -
@nepia And Douglas is a PERFECT example of the kind of player who under my structure could well have been picked up by the Chiefs in lieu of signing a guy like Tom Sanders, or Michael Veitch who does NOTHING for NZ rugby and therefore Douglas would still be with Waikato. Which is all kinds of right. I'm not sure how you can argue that with a straight face.
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Quota system reminds me too much like modern diversity programs or the saffa rugby quotas. Not always best man getting the job.
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I like the current structure - Auckland and Waikato need to do a better job of talent development/recruitment. It's do-able. Auckland 2 years ago came within a whisker of the title and Wellington have bounced back superbly this year.
It's not the current model's fault that Auckland overlook others and sign terrible players like Tyrone Elkington-MacDonald and Jono Hickey etc etc (I'm sure Waikato have similar examples).
@shark there's a lot of Crusaders that play for Canterbury/ Ta$man provinces that are from outside the region anyway, so how 'tribal' is that. In fact looking at the original squad from this year, over half of the 38 man Crusaders squad are from outside the Crusaders region.
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Seriously Shark - where's the problem.
Looks like it's working to me - and I don't give a shit about Super Rugby
Meanwhile the sadly downgraded provincial rugby comp has Canterbury, Taranaki, Harbour and Ta$man as the semi-finalists.
Boo hoo that 4 of the franchise bases couldn't make it. I mean genuinely I am sooooo fucking sorry
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@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@nepia Point missed? There are already 8 Waikato players in that squad. But how many were there a couple of years later? I'm sure you know as well as I do that there were more players from provinces -
from memory - such as Manawatu and Ta$man than Waikato in following years. I'm all about provincialism and tribalism throughout the NZ game, so for mine, that's wrong.Your points are all over the show. You're claiming the Waikato demise is due to the Chiefs selecting decisions since their rise in 2012 however their squad wasn't even that good in the years before that. There is no point the Chiefs picking Waikato players who are not in the top players in the country just because their franchise is based within that province. And those middle years had particularly poor Waikato teams. Hell, the Canes have a Wellington first policy and they're in the 2nd Division currently.
As for Douglas, you're focusing on one player who has missed out because it suits a narrative you're creating, in a team that is filled with loose forwards from within the franchise boundaries (it's just that they're from BoP, the Naki, and Counties), and only because he was an injury replacement in your team, I doubt you were bemoaning the fact he didn't make the Chiefs after the NPC last year.
Provincialism is not franchise rugby. Maybe you have a belief that they're associated because for so long Canterbury=Crusaders, but for the rest of us they're two different beasts.
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@shark I don't think you are fully grasping the dynamics outside of Canterbury, which has one comparatively isolated city with an area such as the upper north island.
These days North Harbour, Auckland,Counties, Waikato, BOP almost blend into each other. A player in one of those unions can easily associate with, or play in, the unions either side of him.
Take someone like Beaver as an example. Lives in Counties, has a business in Counties, grew up and started playing for Counties, yet was considered a local when playing for years at Waikato.
As soon as a policy like the one you are advocating is brought in, players from CM and BOP will congregate back at Waikato or endlessly move around between the three unions to manage the quota system for the Chiefs.
We get that with the Crusaders and Canterbury being effectively the Saders A and B sides drives great parochialism and support, but that dynamic doesn't work in other environments.
The Canes followed your concept for years and it never made Wellington strong. -
@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@shark I don't think you are fully grasping the dynamics outside of Canterbury, which has one comparatively isolated city with an area such as the upper north island.
These days North Harbour, Auckland,Counties, Waikato, BOP almost blend into each other. A player in one of those unions can easily associate with, or play in, the unions either side of him.
Take someone like Beaver as an example. Lives in Counties, has a business in Counties, grew up and started playing for Counties, yet was considered a local when playing for years at Waikato.
As soon as a policy like the one you are advocating is brought in, players from CM and BOP will congregate back at Waikato or endlessly move around between the three unions to manage the quota system for the Chiefs.
We get that with the Crusaders and Canterbury being effectively the Saders A and B sides drives great parochialism and support, but that dynamic doesn't work in a less inbred environment.Impossible to take anything you say seriously when your post is so heavily influenced by your idiotic and bigoted perception of Canterbury. Says a lot about posters such as yourself that a post about Waikato and the Chiefs comes back to Canterbury bashing.
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@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@shark I don't think you are fully grasping the dynamics outside of Canterbury, which has one comparatively isolated city with an area such as the upper north island.
These days North Harbour, Auckland,Counties, Waikato, BOP almost blend into each other. A player in one of those unions can easily associate with, or play in, the unions either side of him.
Take someone like Beaver as an example. Lives in Counties, has a business in Counties, grew up and started playing for Counties, yet was considered a local when playing for years at Waikato.
As soon as a policy like the one you are advocating is brought in, players from CM and BOP will congregate back at Waikato or endlessly move around between the three unions to manage the quota system for the Chiefs.
We get that with the Crusaders and Canterbury being effectively the Saders A and B sides drives great parochialism and support, but that dynamic doesn't work in a less inbred environment.Impossible to take anything you say seriously when your post is so heavily influenced by your idiotic and bigoted perception of Canterbury. Says a lot about posters such as yourself that a post about Waikato and the Chiefs comes back to Canterbury bashing.
Sorry @shark that last comment was pure and utter bait and it looks like I caught Jaws.
(I actually thought you would realise) -
@nepia said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@nepia Point missed? There are already 8 Waikato players in that squad. But how many were there a couple of years later? I'm sure you know as well as I do that there were more players from provinces -
from memory - such as Manawatu and Ta$man than Waikato in following years. I'm all about provincialism and tribalism throughout the NZ game, so for mine, that's wrong.Your points are all over the show. You're claiming the Waikato demise is due to the Chiefs selecting decisions since their rise in 2012 however their squad wasn't even that good in the years before that. There is no point the Chiefs picking Waikato players who are not in the top players in the country just because their franchise is based within that province. And those middle years had particularly poor Waikato teams. Hell, the Canes have a Wellington first policy and they're in the 2nd Division currently.
As for Douglas, you're focusing on one player who has missed out because it suits a narrative you're creating, in a team that is filled with loose forwards from within the franchise boundaries (it's just that they're from BoP, the Naki, and Counties), and only because he was an injury replacement in your team, I doubt you were bemoaning the fact he didn't make the Chiefs after the NPC last year.
Provincialism is not franchise rugby. Maybe you have a belief that they're associated because for so long Canterbury=Crusaders, but for the rest of us they're two different beasts.
I'm IMPLYING the Waikato demise is associated with the Chiefs selection policies since Central contracting began, and I've thrown out a scenario re how the two could be connected, but I've actually asked for opinions from locals.
I'm focusing on Douglas because he's a perfect and very recent example of the kind of player ignored by the Chiefs in lieu of other signings, who was proven to be well and truly up to scratch, but is now gone.
I get that some fans of other franchises may have
disassociated said franchise from the local provinces, more ala US pro sports where it's a rarity to have a local player in a squad, but we're not the US. NZ is a vastly smaller market and there's no reason why the Super structure can't be tinkered with, without breaking it, so that all sides end up with more local talent involved. -
@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@shark I don't think you are fully grasping the dynamics outside of Canterbury, which has one comparatively isolated city with an area such as the upper north island.
These days North Harbour, Auckland,Counties, Waikato, BOP almost blend into each other. A player in one of those unions can easily associate with, or play in, the unions either side of him.
Take someone like Beaver as an example. Lives in Counties, has a business in Counties, grew up and started playing for Counties, yet was considered a local when playing for years at Waikato.
As soon as a policy like the one you are advocating is brought in, players from CM and BOP will congregate back at Waikato or endlessly move around between the three unions to manage the quota system for the Chiefs.
We get that with the Crusaders and Canterbury being effectively the Saders A and B sides drives great parochialism and support, but that dynamic doesn't work in a less inbred environment.Impossible to take anything you say seriously when your post is so heavily influenced by your idiotic and bigoted perception of Canterbury. Says a lot about posters such as yourself that a post about Waikato and the Chiefs comes back to Canterbury bashing.
Sorry @shark that last comment was pure and utter bait and it looks like I caught Jaws.
(I actually thought you would realise)Passes off as bait or not, I think we all know it's not an isolated comment.
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@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@shark I don't think you are fully grasping the dynamics outside of Canterbury, which has one comparatively isolated city with an area such as the upper north island.
These days North Harbour, Auckland,Counties, Waikato, BOP almost blend into each other. A player in one of those unions can easily associate with, or play in, the unions either side of him.
Take someone like Beaver as an example. Lives in Counties, has a business in Counties, grew up and started playing for Counties, yet was considered a local when playing for years at Waikato.
As soon as a policy like the one you are advocating is brought in, players from CM and BOP will congregate back at Waikato or endlessly move around between the three unions to manage the quota system for the Chiefs.
We get that with the Crusaders and Canterbury being effectively the Saders A and B sides drives great parochialism and support, but that dynamic doesn't work in a less inbred environment.Impossible to take anything you say seriously when your post is so heavily influenced by your idiotic and bigoted perception of Canterbury. Says a lot about posters such as yourself that a post about Waikato and the Chiefs comes back to Canterbury bashing.
Sorry @shark that last comment was pure and utter bait and it looks like I caught Jaws.
(I actually thought you would realise)Passes off as bait or not, I think we all know it's not an isolated comment.
It's called banter and as you love parochialism, it's a bit odd to get shirty when people crank up. Yes, I have a genuine anti-cantab slant. It originated from rugby a long time ago.
Anyway, in the spirit of the current humour bypass version of the Fern I have gone back and edited away the bait. Happy to debate the point otherwise.
The only reason this has become some sort of Chiefs v Saders thing is because you targeted the original post for some reason at Waikato when the point your are promoting equally applies to Auckland, Wellington and Otago. -
Seems like an outdated argument to me. The WRU are a mess and Waikato had a shit season but the Mitre 10 Cup is becoming less and less important every year, all the money goes to Super Rugby and that's the priority. It may sting because we all grew up with the NPC but what's important is getting the best players in NZ into the 5 franchises, not strengthening teams in a much less important competition.
The way I see things, the Mitre 10 Cup is basically turning into a developmental league. The next step will probably be resting starting Super players from playing in it, leaving just the U20 players, fringe Super players and club stand outs.
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@unco said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
Seems like an outdated argument to me. The WRU are a mess and Waikato had a shit season but the Mitre 10 Cup is becoming less and less important every year, all the money goes to Super Rugby and that's the priority. It may sting because we all grew up with the NPC but what's important is getting the best players in NZ into the 5 franchises, not strengthening teams in a much less important competition.
The way I see things, the Mitre 10 Cup is basically turning into a developmental league. The next step will probably be resting starting Super players from playing in it, leaving just the U20 players, fringe Super players and club stand outs.
I think that is already true for many locked in Super Players. They are either unavailable through internationals or use the time for rehab.
It is important to keep an avenue for up and coming good super players to hone their play and gain experience though (e.g. Akira Ioane) and important for the lower third of Super Players to play and be challenged by new players for their squad places. -
I thought the past few seasons of Super rugby have been very competitive (NZ Teams) and if you take out the anomaly of last year with the rule tweaking, I think the overall quality of rugby in the NPC has been on the improve over the last few years.
Surely that is a sign that at the moment, things are about right, that's not to say things wont need tweaking down the track.
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The topic was clearly stated by Shark, the significant decline of Waikato while the Chiefs prospered.
What hasn't been discussedmuch is the effect of the change in how super teams are contracted. It seems now that most places are filled before the crunch end of the ITM Cup, making it far less relevant towards Super selections. Tyler Ardron has played well for Canada when free from injury. But, what does an early signing of an overseas player say to local contenders playing in ITM Cup, like Manihera, Parete, Henwood and Halafihi? We know what happened with Halafihi now, and poor old Joe Tupe last year. I can understand Luke Jacobsen, and perhaps Tiaan Falcon as an outsider - but does that impact on Luteru Laulala, Matty Lansdown, Mike Delaney, Steve Donald etc? Signing Tahuriorangi is reclaiming local talent, but not a great motivator for Judd, Levien etc.
I just read Beaver's book, and it reinforced to me how important it is for players to have genuine aspirations, to bring out the best in their play. In answer to previous posters I was stunned last year that Douglas, Tupe, Vaka, Mitch Jacobson, Skeen and Reece all missed both the draft and WTG spots for all franchises. Glad the last 3 have hung around, but the performances of their team in ITM Cup this year will not have helped their case at all.
I see a real correlation between ITM Cup performance and the number of players who have their Super Rugby spots sorted. I see that in 27 Cantabrians and 23 from Taranaki. But, 18 of those Taranaki players played for franchises other than the Chiefs this year. Maybe Waikato needs to assist more players towards pathways outside the Chiefs???
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In terms of the early contracting, and keeping spots open and having an end of season signing-up deadline, or even the mini-draft they used to do for out-of-franchise players.
There's (exodus) risk in that approach too. Players might put up with it for a year or 2 at the start of their careers when they are young, hungry and ambitious.
But who wants to get to November and not yet know if next year you're earning a 50k NPC wage or earning a 150k combined NPC +SR wage. Etc, Also not know what town or even island you will be living in next year, and the year after that.
That approach works in a bubble, not when you have well paid stable options overseas.
