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@Davesofthunder You should try and provide an argument for why Trump is bad. I've had the cool-aid line thrown my way a few times too, always interesting to hear the arguments for and against. I find a lot of anti-Trumpers I've spoken with have just never been presented with a logical counter-argument so it's very easy to get caught up in the hysteria. I've certainly gone from unbridled hatred of him to a level of respect for the guy.
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I think that alot of the feeling toward of Trump is purely that he comes across as a despicable human being, who is obviously doing some good but will be largely ignored because of peoples feelings about him, but he appears to have little self control and just says shit that you simply dont expect to come from 'the leader of the free world'
Yes some may say its refreshing, but in times that we live in now (NK & IS) a tiny modicum of class would go a long way.
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@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
I think that alot of the feeling toward of Trump is purely that he comes across as a despicable human being, who is obviously doing some good but will be largely ignored because of peoples feelings about him, but he appears to have little self control and just says shit that you simply dont expect to come from 'the leader of the free world'
Yes some may say its refreshing, but in times that we live in now (NK & IS) a tiny modicum of class would go a long way.
I think the media do some incredibly diligent work in making sure he is depicted as despicable.
Bush ws also depicted as a terrible person. Even Romney was portrayed terribly. Every single republican will be. -
@baron-silas-greenback I think he does a good enough job without the media's hatchet jobs...
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@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@baron-silas-greenback I think he does a good enough job without the media's hatchet jobs...
Oh without a doubt. So did Bush and Romny.. but so did Obama.... yet only one flavor of politician gets a pass.. in fact not only gets a pass.. but gets lavished.
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@baron-silas-greenback I think the media have changed alot in the past few years, sadly for the worse
Dubya inspired some undesirable song lyrics about him...
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@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
I think that alot of the feeling toward of Trump is purely that he comes across as a despicable human being, who is obviously doing some good but will be largely ignored because of peoples feelings about him, but he appears to have little self control and just says shit that you simply dont expect to come from 'the leader of the free world'
Yes some may say its refreshing, but in times that we live in now (NK & IS) a tiny modicum of class would go a long way.
Yup, which I think is what @Baron-Silas-Greenback is getting at. Most of the hate directed towards Trump comes from a purely emotional place where logic and reason have gone out the window. I don't hear many coherent arguments against him TBH. He's a dick, but so are most people that run for positions of power. His twitter account is certainly something new though - rightly or wrongly he's not afraid to say what he thinks which does pour gas on the fire at times.
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I will be honest and say I am too lazy to go into massive length in responses but will give it a go.
I almost hesitated to comment as Baron has a long habit of coming for people with an impressive tenacity.
Either way....
My main issue with Trump is his ego (which I firmly believe and have seen get in the way if actually getting things done or taking an honest approach) and also that I just don't think he is a good person (pussy grabbing, clear business history of going after others with a dishonest "litigation" approach to put them off, Trump university etc) and I do believe that although leaders require supreme confidence and can't possibly be perfect he falls well short of the standard we should expect in behaviour and personal standards.
I do lean towards the left but i hesitate to describe myself that way because it just isnt a one size fits all and there are plenty of things I would take or entirely reject from both sides (They are often after the same bloody thing but have to argue it's different and apply some other logic so they are "left" or "right"
Trump himself has certainly changed his politics over the years and I could respect that if I believed that was because he felt differently. I simply don't believe that. He is a narcissist and has just gone in the direction he can to get to power. It's scary because it is effective.
In addition those politics he is chasing now are not something I can get onboard with. I firmly believe things like universal health care should be central to any decent society. Something as simple as your health shouldn't rely on how wealthy you are and we should be aiming to live in a world where that is a given.
Lastly, If my child grew up and wrote the kind of childish and bully/inflammatory tweets he does I would be bloody disappointed but when the US President does it I just think what the he'll have we come to. Even when he is right (which naturally does happen) often his approach is just one I could never get on board with.
Anyways that's my thoughts.
I won't engage in a tit for tat on massively specific single examples as life is busy but I do find the broader discussion one of interest.
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His tweets are interesting alright. I can see a certain level of attractiveness for supporters in that its almost an unfiltered view of him which is pretty rare in politics. Not refined but maybe honest.
I found this interview with Scott Adams interesting where he makes an argument about a certain genius method to Trumps apparent madness. He makes a great point about North Korea, Kim has two options with Trump. Either attack another country and certainly die..or don't attack another country and maybe not die. He doesn't want to die.
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I think a lot more people know that all politicians are obnoxious fools. It fascinates me that some seem to think that Trump is somehow worse than all the others, I would argue he is just more open about it.
You don't get to lead the US without having a huge ego and an ability to stomp all over those that oppose you. Look up how Obama treated his enemies, you might be shocked. I am sure Bush did the same... although I don't know any examples for him.
Of course he writes childish inflammatory things, but so what? It just doesn't matter. The sickness within US culture is that many things cannot be discussed openly without a PC lynch mob being formed.
If you want to say he shouldn't lead the US because he personally annoys you, fair enough, but don't pretend it is based on anything but superficial criteria.
I loath Obama and think he was an arrogant nasty tool. Far worse than Trump, with nasty policies that hurt a lot of people. He just got a free ride from the media in general.
Nothing Obama did excuses what Trump does, but does offer a juxtaposition to the current outrage.Quite honestly it seems that the western culture has sunk back into the puritan days, some of the 'sticks up their ass' types remind me of the conservatives of the 50's tut tutting that horrid rock and roll music. The parallels between people complaining 'that is not how music is done! ' and people comparing that that is not how politics are done' is inescapable.
I am pleased to see this happening, because puritans are generally always on the losing side in history. A counter culture is forming, and it will gain traction. I think posters like @Davesofthunder are going to be horrified and offended more and more as people say exactly what they think more and more. Sadly it is also likely to lead to a massive schism in society, this will of course all be blamed on the right. Why couldn't they just shut up and and do as the left told them?????As for universal health care, no country in the wold can afford it, nobody has it.
It has never worked. The costs get out of control in a huge way incredibly quickly, like all socialist ideas, it sounds so wonderful, all unicorns and light, but falls apart as soon as reality bites. Who pays for it? -
Regarding the tax plan, it will be interesting to see how it goes.
This showed up in my feed today.
It appears to really help out the more wealthy, but some of that may be the source.
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@gt12 said in US Politics:
Regarding the tax plan, it will be interesting to see how it goes.
This showed up in my feed today.
It appears to really help out the more wealthy, but some of that may be the source.
The charts make interesting points and (ignoring any possible bias from the source) paint a picture that, to me is one dimensional. For instance, it ignores a basic fact that it is the more wealthy that invest in business and that decreasing the tax burden in this area can provide more opportunity for positive investment which may help fund jobs for the less wealthy. It is not always about who gets the money it is also about the velocity of money in providing better growth prospects. As ever though, these things are cyclical and inevitably the cycle goes too far one way before changing tack and usually this is due to Governmental interference or greed.
TBH I don't know anywhere near enough about the US tax system to judge whether or not these tax breaks are a positive or not but I do know that historically simplification of the tax system and a reduction in the tax burden are positives for growth.
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Yep, that’s the bet here.
I’m interested to see how it works out - it didn’t go that well so far for Kansas, despite what I learned as a commerce student...
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@gt12 I found something that is potentially interesting re the tax cuts. This from an economist named Jim Wood-Smith of Hawksmoor Investments. Hawksmoor is an award winning boutique investment house in the UK. Jim has worked for larger companies sin the past such as Williams De Broe (national stockbrokers) and Investec (national stockbrokers and wholesale fund house). He's often an interesting read. Anyway...
"Let’s go west. The Senate, you will have read, has passed Trump’s tax cuts. Jolly good, again. Except they have not. The way American legislation can work is that non-identical bills have been passed by the Senate and the House of Representatives. These now have to go to Committee to be unified. So we know new rates of neither personal nor corporate tax, nor the inevitable unintended consequences. Never mind, the markets love it. Hurrah, Hurrah, the Dow is marching to 25,000."
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@baron-silas-greenback said in US Politics:
Things got even worse after the election. The mainstream media, shamed and humbled by Trump’s election victory, decided to attack him with a vengeance on everything he said and did.
They didn’t actually have to overdo it. By virtue of his personality, President Trump gave them a lot of material, and they’d have been fine if they’d covered his flaws and missteps straight up. But they overplayed their hand, and not a little. Many mainstream journalists have become a little grandiose. They’ve joined the “Resistance,” and see themselves as grand defenders of democracy, as brave protectors of norms and institutions.This.
Once I finally saw/realised the extent of this, I just couldn't unsee. Now I just don't where I stand. All I know is I now hate politics. -
I try to stay away from this thread but....tax cuts. Trickle down economics has never been proven to work. All I can see the tax cuts doing is widening the gap between the rich and the rest.
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@stockcar86 said in US Politics:
I try to stay away from this thread but....tax cuts. Trickle down economics has never been proven to work. All I can see the tax cuts doing is widening the gap between the rich and the rest.
On the flip side, how does increased tax help reduce that gap? I'd rather we don't leave it up to the Government to redistribute wealth. That idea has been tested and.... failed with rather disastrous results.
Edit - also, regarding the "trickle down" economics. Here's an interesting article by Thomas Sowell on that - http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367682/trickle-down-lie-thomas-sowell
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@stockcar86 said in US Politics:
I try to stay away from this thread but....tax cuts. Trickle down economics has never been proven to work. All I can see the tax cuts doing is widening the gap between the rich and the rest.
Trickle down economics is a mythical beast made up by the left anyway. It does not exist. If you want to see tax cuts helping the economy as a whole. There are LOTS of examples. Look at Regans efforts as one example.
As for income inequality. . Watch this -
@stockcar86 said in US Politics:
Trickle down economics has never been proven to work
It's a unicorn. Trickle down economics has never been implemented. There isn't a single peer reviewed economics paper that advocates for it, let alone a government trying to implement a plan called trickle down economics.
@baron-silas-greenback said in US Politics:
If you want to see tax cuts helping the economy as a whole. There are LOTS of examples. Look at Regans efforts as one example.
By reducing receipts and massively increasing the deficit?
The success of Reaganomics was noninflationary monetary policy. Reagan was lucky to be President during the right time in the business cycle. Much like John Howard.
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