The Semenya Rule
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Last week, track and field’s world governing body limited entry into women’s events to athletes who have testosterone levels that are capable of being produced solely by ovaries.
In an effort to address questions about fair play, track and field’s world governing body will publish regulations on Thursday that could force some elite female athletes with naturally elevated testosterone levels to lower the hormone with medication, compete against men in certain Olympic events or effectively give up their international careers.
If this thread becomes too political, it can be moved, but I thought it deserved discussion in the Sports Talk thread. Seems like a reasonable approach for addressing the sex/gender identity division (regardless of people's thoughts about it) by limiting the key factor that leads to better performance. I'm still a bit concerned about the potential of prior gains not being considered, but it's interesting in that you can display as female, but if you have too much testosterone, you need to get on the lady hormones quick.
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I really have no idea how to handle this situation, just ten years ago it was all so easy, the whole male/female thing, now people get pissed and throw tantrums (at least on the internet) when you're saying anything that hints at sex being a binary thing.
I don't think forcing athletes to take hormones is the way to go, honestly. If there's somehow doubt about a person's sex, they should just compete with the men, as men are of course outperforming women in every sport (weirdly, bar long distance swimming, or so I read somewhere).
Trans-people should also just compete with men in general. I don't care what's between your legs, if you went through puberty as a man you're so far ahead of women who put in the same amount of work, it's just unfair.
Feel free to stone me, internet mob!
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Yeah, so this again. The issue is really about what a 'fair' playing field is, and what characterstics you need to have to be able to compete against women.
In my head, testosterone seems to have an effect. When Semenya could compete at any level, her times plummetted (post 2015). The question is then about where you draw the line. Unfortunately, a number of top male athletes have low testosterone, to the point where there is substantial overlap between elite female and male levels.
Competing as a female is a protected class. Therefore, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Where that line is will always piss some people off who are just on the wrong side - and I don't think there is a 'right' answer, you just have to draw a line in grey.
ALso, I don't think it is as simple as people make out. Even genitalia is an issue - I understand there are a proportion of people with dual genitalia, with one type more formed than others. So how do you draw a line - at what point are you disqualified?
Having said all of that, I think the current ban looks terrible, and appears to target Semenya. I am yet to see any evidence to support the assertion that testosterone in women does improve 400-1600m times, but has no effect on shorter or longer races.
Also, I reckon this thread has about 2 hours before it gets locked, or moved to the equivalent of US politics.
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@mooshld said in The Semenya Rule:
@tordah said in The Semenya Rule:
as men are of course outperforming women in every sport (weirdly, bar long distance swimming, or so I read somewhere).
Ultra running as well. Once you go over 150kms gender is very much less relevant.
Is that true? A quick Google of ultra running distances (100miles) has men well ahead of women. The fastest man running 100miles on a track is over 2 hours quicker than the best female.
Even looking at 24 - 48 hour races have the best men covering a lot more distance than the females.
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@toddy said in The Semenya Rule:
@mooshld said in The Semenya Rule:
@tordah said in The Semenya Rule:
as men are of course outperforming women in every sport (weirdly, bar long distance swimming, or so I read somewhere).
Ultra running as well. Once you go over 150kms gender is very much less relevant.
Is that true? A quick Google of ultra running distances (100miles) has men well ahead of women. The fastest man running 100miles on a track is over 2 hours quicker than the best female.
Even looking at 24 - 48 hour races have the best men covering a lot more distance than the females.
Yeah it was one of those convincing claims in that very popular book "born to run". I think there were a few claims that weren't exactly true.
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Semenya is a different kettle of fish to transgender people. Intersex (or hermaphrodite) people are a genuine anomaly and cannot easily be categorised. The best way to deal with people like her has to be case by case basis, as it is very rare.
Transgender is completely different though. Someone that has grown up a man and now just "identifies" as a woman by taking some hormone treatment should be competing against the men. There's your line in the sand, backed by a mountain of scientific evidence that shows growing up male gives you a significant advantage over females.
If you don't draw the line there then female sports get brought into disrepute.
I honestly don't think this is very hard to get your head around, unless you actually believe that gender is nothing more than a social construct - a worrying amount of people seem to buy that idea these days.
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I wonder whether there should be a category in-between the women's and men's competitions for women with abnormally high and for men with abnormally low testerone levels. Trans men (female to male) cannot be compared to cis-men even if they've received hormone treatment/surgery; they'll always be disadvantaged physically. However, also trans women (male to female) who have received hormone treatment/surgery - while possibly having an advantage over women - are not on a par with cis-men physically. Maybe they should lump all these sports people in a seprate category? Maybe then you receive the fairest outcome? Just a thought; not an opinion.
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People overthink these things.
Was she born a woman? Yes. She's a woman. Has she taken any performance enhancing drugs? No. Let her compete.
News flash people ... not everybody has the natural attributes to be world champions. Every single world record holder, multiple champion, is undoubtedly a freak of nature born with some luck on their side - be it physical attributes, naturally high levels of whatever chemical or pinpoint hand eye co ordination.
If she ain't cheating just bloody deal with it that she got lucky. I bet she trains just has hard as anybody else and is deserving of whatever she wins.
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@majorrage said in The Semenya Rule:
People overthink these things.
Was she born a woman? Yes. She's a woman. Has she taken any performance enhancing drugs? No. Let her compete.
She was also born with testicles (admittedly undecended but functional, a lifetime building a manly frame with the benefits of testo, so can she run against bolt aswell?)
Her taking testo suppressants and forced removal of her balls, after years of development of her manly physique is very much on the level of a transgender person if you ask me..
That said, I don't like the fact that this rule only applies to certain races. Races, which incidentally Semenya runs.
What's the point of female sport if it's champions are basically ex-men.
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@pn said in The Semenya Rule:
@majorrage said in The Semenya Rule:
People overthink these things.
Was she born a woman? Yes. She's a woman. Has she taken any performance enhancing drugs? No. Let her compete.
She was also born with testicles (admittedly undecended but functional, a lifetime building a manly frame with the benefits of testo, so can she run against bolt aswell?)
Her taking testo suppressants and forced removal of her balls, after years of development of her manly physique is very much on the level of a transgender person if you ask me..
That said, I don't like the fact that this rule only applies to certain races. Races, which incidentally Semenya runs.
What's the point of female sport if it's champions are basically ex-men.
Have any of those things actually been verified? I've read about them but most are simply rumours aren't they and "leaks" to the press from people who may or may not have agendas?
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@rembrandt said in The Semenya Rule:
@toddy said in The Semenya Rule:
@mooshld said in The Semenya Rule:
@tordah said in The Semenya Rule:
as men are of course outperforming women in every sport (weirdly, bar long distance swimming, or so I read somewhere).
Ultra running as well. Once you go over 150kms gender is very much less relevant.
Is that true? A quick Google of ultra running distances (100miles) has men well ahead of women. The fastest man running 100miles on a track is over 2 hours quicker than the best female.
Even looking at 24 - 48 hour races have the best men covering a lot more distance than the females.
Yeah it was one of those convincing claims in that very popular book "born to run". I think there were a few claims that weren't exactly true.
Check out what Courtney Dauwalter did in the Maub 240. On a race by race basis you get woman winning a lot more frequently then you would if you looked at shorter distances. I didn't say its a 50 50 but like I said gender is less of an issue and you do sometimes get woman winning outright.
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@majorrage said in The Semenya Rule:
y been verified? I've read about them but most are simply rumours aren't they and "leaks" to the press from people who may or may not have agendas?
I don't think that the results of the tests are meant for public consumption. That said, a statement from IAAF Secretary pretty much confirmed it. Whether or not she underwent tests (to remove her testes) is not clear, however, one would suspect that the fact they are looking to further reduce testo levels indicates something is producing it.
Maybe something else is producing high levels of testo in her body, if it's not testes, what is it? Good Genes? It cant be doping or she would have been banned.
The International Association of Athletics Federations received the results of Semenya's 'gender verification test' this week, but it has refused to confirm the findings until they have been verified by a panel of independent scientific experts and the athlete has been personally informed. But Pierre Weiss, the IAAF secretary general, hinted strongly at the results on Thursday when he said: "It is clear that she is a woman, but maybe not 100 per cent. We have to see if she has an advantage from her possibly being between two sexes compared to the others."``` It took a doping Russian to beat Semenya in the 2012 Olympics, and Mariya Savinova only just beat Semenya too.  -
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@pn said in The Semenya Rule:
Getting an error when editing my posts so to add:
I get that quite often as well. I have found that if you close the error box then go into edit on the post again your previous edit is still there and gets accepted second time around.
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@crucial said in The Semenya Rule:
@pn said in The Semenya Rule:
Getting an error when editing my posts so to add:
I get that quite often as well. I have found that if you close the error box then go into edit on the post again your previous edit is still there and gets accepted second time around.
Yes, only when editing posts that are over 1024 characters. Editing a second time works
It’s a bug in the last release we installed. It will go when I get around to installing the latest update
