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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
Brexit isn't any poisoned chalice - it's the result of a referendum. The mess is caused by politicians who didn't get the result they expected and want to stay as close as possible to the EU at whatever the cost. Over 110 (out of 650) MP's voted to ignore the referendum result, for example.
IMO, it's part of a bigger, underlying issue where politicians haven't just lost touch with the public, they are openly contemptuous of their concerns. PM Gordon Brown called a woman who expressed concern about the impact of large numbers of Eastern European immigrants on public services "a bigoted old white woman"
Yeah, May screwed up the snap election (and many other things) but even if she had won a big majority the same problem of a Parliament reluctant to implement the referendum result would still be there.
I don't disagree with your point about losing touch but the referendum itself has caused the problem. Why ask such a binary undefined question without any plan or explanation of what Brexit actually meant.
I had plenty of discussions with people around the time and they all had different ideas of what 'leave' actually meant.
First thing I ask when offered a job is 'do you clearly know your requirements and what level of definition are they at?' A project that is vague and poorly defined is doomed to fail in key areas.
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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
To be fair to Boris, he did put his hat in the ring and was then screwed by Gove. (faintly disturbing imagery...)
On the face of it yes, but they are both canny politicians and they don't seem too antagonistic towards each other now.
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@crucial said in British Politics:
I don't disagree with your point about losing touch but the referendum itself has caused the problem. Why ask such a binary undefined question without any plan or explanation of what Brexit actually meant.
The "people didn't know what Leave actually meant" argument is a pretty shallow one IMHO. It could apply to any election or party manifesto. You could equally argue that point with any future EU integration/changes if there had been a Remain win. (I voted Remain BTW)
The referendum hasn't caused the problem. It's the result and the way politicians and influencers have reacted to it that has caused the problem. It's exposed fault lines in the system which would have remained hidden if the Remain campaign had won. Where it's heading, no-one knows..
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@catogrande said in British Politics:
We elect a Government every five years to make our decisions for us, if we don't like the decisions they make they get chucked out.
We did just that. We elected a government in 2015 and they decided to hold a referendum.
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Don't buy that. Unless there was some grand conspiracy by Boris and Gove to ensure they didn't become PM to ensure Boris could resign as Foreign Secretary two years later
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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
We elect a Government every five years to make our decisions for us, if we don't like the decisions they make they get chucked out.
We did just that. We elected a government in 2015 and they decided to hold a referendum.
And look where it got them. PM elected with significant majority, main opposition party all but wiped out, then referendum, PM and right hand man resign, turmoil in the Government, snap election resulting in minority Government. Bitter infighting, no real progress on implementation of the referendum result, cabinet resignations, probability of a change of PM.
All in all not a good outcome for the Government who decided to pander to the people.
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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
Don't buy that. Unless there was some grand conspiracy by Boris and Gove to ensure they didn't become PM to ensure Boris could resign as Foreign Secretary two years later
it is within the bounds of possibility that they put their heads together to come up with a way they could dodge the Premiership without actually saying "No" to it. Let's face it neither of them fought very hard for it. Rolled over faster than Neymar.
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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
The "people didn't know what Leave actually meant" argument is a pretty shallow one IMHO. It could apply to any election or party manifesto. You could equally argue that point with any future EU integration/changes if there had been a Remain win. (I voted Remain BTW)
Can't agree with that. The leave campaign trail was focused around the 350mill per week into the NHS, the lack of wanting to be pushed around and told what to do, and immigration.
The first was bullshit, as anybody with a brain could figure out. The second is British mentality and it was played on, and the third was people generally being sick of losing jobs to cheaper, and in some situations, more skilled workers.
Farage, Johnson and co all portrayed this fantastic, unrealistic vision that after the vote, the UK would just skip it's way out, and the country would prosper. They are all blaming May for a lack of leadership and trying to remain close ties with the EU, but in reality, the EU were never under any circumstances make it easier for Britain to leave, or allow deals to happen which could allow Britain to prosper.
The people didn't know what leave really meant sums up the entire country - including the politicians.
OR to put it another way.
Chloe Jones, whose never worked a day in her life relies purely on social services to support her and her 3 kids who have 3 different fathers, vote has the same power as Richard Harby-Fairweather, who sits at the head of a business in London employing 15,000 people in the UK doing trade across all European blocks.
Chloe voted Leave as she is sick of the fucking immigrants eluding off her taxes which she's never paid using the NHS. Richard voted Remain, as he wants whats best for the 15,000 people who are employed by his business in the UK.
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@catogrande said in British Politics:
All in all not a good outcome for the Government who decided to pander to the people.
No. This is pretty much a re-run of what happened in 1990-91 with John Major and the Maastricht Treaty. No referendum then.
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Exactly the same argument on people being conned can be used had Remain won.
Cameron told us voting Brexit could cause war in Europe, Osborne warned of an emergency budget with NHS cuts and big tax increases in the event of a Brexit vote and Nick Clegg warned of hundreds of thousands in refugee camps in Kent....
Or to use your Chloe & Richard analogy on voter power:
Richard Harby-Fairweather* voted remain as he runs an uncompetitive business and recruits almost exclusively cheap Eastern European workers. He wants to remain and is worried that leaving the EU will mean he will have to pay his workforce more and will need to compete for business against global competitors rather than simply operate in a protectionist EU. He is worried shareholders may stop his annual £3m performance bonus.
Joe Bamford whose family owns and runs JCB, a hugely successful British company operating in 5 continents, is concerned that the EU's shrinking share of world trade and protectionist policies and tariffs will negativity impact export opportunities and wants what's best for his 12,000 staff in the UK and elsewhere. He has a company vision of growing his company to no.1 in the world and believes the UK should be independent on trade and regulations like Canada, Australia or Japan
Totally agree with you that the politicians are fucking things up though
"I was told something similar to this by a FTSE 250 COO last year
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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
@crucial said in British Politics:
I don't disagree with your point about losing touch but the referendum itself has caused the problem. Why ask such a binary undefined question without any plan or explanation of what Brexit actually meant.
The "people didn't know what Leave actually meant" argument is a pretty shallow one IMHO. It could apply to any election or party manifesto. You could equally argue that point with any future EU integration/changes if there had been a Remain win. (I voted Remain BTW)
The referendum hasn't caused the problem. It's the result and the way politicians and influencers have reacted to it that has caused the problem. It's exposed fault lines in the system which would have remained hidden if the Remain campaign had won. Where it's heading, no-one knows..
I think you are mixing up the wish of the people to separate from Europe 'somehow' with understanding what the definition of 'leave' is.
No context or outline was supplied with the vote leaving things very open to interpretation. Those that want all ties completely and utterly severed are mixed with those that simply didn't want to be part of the EU bureaucracy but would like practical elements such as trade to continue in an equivalent way.There is simply no way that the UK can walk away with no deal. It would be like the 1970s with empty shop shelves, rubbish piling up on the streets etc. It takes a lot of work to untangle a country from a structure it has been meshed in for so long.
Even imagine the chaos at ports and airports. As it is the Border Control cannot cope and the wait times even for Brits to re-enter their own country are horrendous. Throw all of Europe into the non-Brit queue and the lines will back up to the aircraft seats.
Want some fruit and veg? Sorry, it is still in the gridlock at Dover as the customs paperwork is being checked.
All of these practical elements need solutions and those solutions may not end up the same as voters imagined.
Northern Ireland is still not sorted either. May has said that there will be no hard border either on land or between islands. The EU do not want an open border nor do they want to pose an artificial one between Ireland and Europe. That's going to be a fun sticking point.
The funniest thing is that many imagine that Britain is negotiating from either a position of strength, or at least on equal terms. That is, and was always going to be, a dream. The EU hold the cards.
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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
All in all not a good outcome for the Government who decided to pander to the people.
No. This is pretty much a re-run of what happened in 1990-91 with John Major and the Maastricht Treaty. No referendum then.
Same problems but different causes. Major suffered a shrinkage in his majority at the GE and had to wrestle with piston wristed gibbons like the Hamiltons, however that situation was caused by changes in the political climate with no one issue being to blame. What May has to deal with was as a direct result of the referendum.
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@catogrande said in British Politics:
@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
To be fair to Boris, he did put his hat in the ring and was then screwed by Gove. (faintly disturbing imagery...)
On the face of it yes, but they are both canny politicians and they don't seem too antagonistic towards each other now.
Both spineless. Thank fuck they're not in charge.
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@mikethesnow Yet.
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@catogrande said in British Politics:
@mikethesnow Yet.
They'd have to swap allegiances.
Oh wait, they have form
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@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
Exactly the same argument on people being conned can be used had Remain won.
Cameron told us voting Brexit could cause war in Europe, Osborne warned of an emergency budget with NHS cuts and big tax increases in the event of a Brexit vote and Nick Clegg warned of hundreds of thousands in refugee camps in Kent....
UK not left yet - none of the above out of the realms of reality.
Or to use your Chloe & Richard analogy on voter power:
Richard Harby-Fairweather* voted remain as he runs an uncompetitive business and recruits almost exclusively cheap Eastern European workers. He wants to remain and is worried that leaving the EU will mean he will have to pay his workforce more and will need to compete for business against global competitors rather than simply operate in a protectionist EU. He is worried shareholders may stop his annual £3m performance bonus.
If he pays the minimum wage, and he has people queuing up for jobs is that his problem? If he doesn't have people queuing up for jobs then it certainly is.
Joe Bamford whose family owns and runs JCB, a hugely successful British company operating in 5 continents, is concerned that the EU's shrinking share of world trade and protectionist policies and tariffs will negativity impact export opportunities and wants what's best for his 12,000 staff in the UK and elsewhere. He has a company vision of growing his company to no.1 in the world and believes the UK should be independent on trade and regulations like Canada, Australia or Japan
Joe is a fair example, but does not compare to Chloe. I don't think I'm wrong to say that for every Joe, there are at least 100 Chloe's.
Totally agree with you that the politicians are fucking things up though
"I was told something similar to this by a FTSE 250 COO last year
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@catogrande said in British Politics:
@victor-meldrew said in British Politics:
Don't buy that. Unless there was some grand conspiracy by Boris and Gove to ensure they didn't become PM to ensure Boris could resign as Foreign Secretary two years later
it is within the bounds of possibility that they put their heads together to come up with a way they could dodge the Premiership without actually saying "No" to it. Let's face it neither of them fought very hard for it. Rolled over faster than Neymar.
Certainly saved them having to back up their rhetoric with action.
Even now they snipe from the sidelines with no realistic alternatives.
It's pure political egotism. I will give May credit for at least wearing the personal rubbish in order to keep the country running -
@catogrande said in British Politics:
Same problems but different causes. Major suffered a shrinkage in his majority at the GE and had to wrestle with piston wristed gibbons like the Hamiltons
No. it was because he joined the ERM (the Euro precurser) and signed up to the Maastricht treaty against many in his own party and very much against the public mood.
Joining the ERM, in particular, was an unmitigated political disaster which destroyed the Tories electoral chances for the next 3 elections.
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@majorrage said in British Politics:
If he pays the minimum wage, and he has people queuing up for jobs is that his problem? If he doesn't have people queuing up for jobs then it certainly is.
Which neatly explains why the electorate rejected Richard's pleas to stay in the EU. He's perfectly happy to import labour from the EU so he can pay the lowest possible to his workers and depress wages for local people. And then shakes his head in disbelief when people he regards as stupid and ill-informed vote to change the system.
Stupider than Chloe Jones IMHO
Joe is a fair example, but does not compare to Chloe. I don't think I'm wrong to say that for every Joe, there are at least 100 Chloe's.
The Chloe's have been left behind, marginalised, called stupid, feckless and generally treated like shit by governments of all flavours and by business for years. The political establishment ignored them - and handed them on a plate to the likes of Farage and the Leave campaign
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@crucial said in British Politics:
The funniest thing is that many imagine that Britain is negotiating from either a position of strength, or at least on equal terms. That is, and was always going to be, a dream. The EU hold the cards.
The EU has made it clear it doesn't want the UK to leave. It will lose the UK's financial contribution and the risk of a low-tax, low tariff, Singapore-style economy (if the UK went down that route ) attracting business would probably terrify them. They are just as keen for a deal as the UK
As Barnier has said “No deal is the worst solution for everybody. It would be a huge economic problem for the UK and also for the EU. I’m not working for that deal, I’m working for a deal.”
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