Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz
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@Siam said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@MajorRage trivial transgression includes a Netflix executive saying niggar, a man teaching his dog treats, a $2million dollar a year news anchor asking why blackface is an insult and a weatherman saying coon instead of king.
As for the rest of your speculation about the girl's future - absolute rubbish.
That's all the options for her is it? In a world with a 48 hr news cycle you see nothing in her future except EVERYBODY recognising her for ever or she commits mass murder.
You haven't really thought this through except through your own outrage view of the world.
Horseshit.
Compare what I write to you, to see who has the outrage of the world and the UK.
Talk about lack of self awareness.
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@Rembrandt but why go through some more virtual signalling from her. It doesn't work, except for those who already believe.
Who gives a fuck what she believes? She's no role model for anyone.
But
Her story is a chance to educate.
So many of our universal learnings are through the public pitfalls of others. Archetypal stories.
Use her story to spread an outcome message.
Are we battling extreme Islam or silly little girls from dysfunctional families?
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@MajorRage you gave this woman's life 2 options. 2 options
My paragraph, "The cornerstone of a truly vile ideology popular at the moment, is one of permanent punishment, where an apology for a trivial "transgression " will not let you keep your job. We can't subscribe to that nonsense."
Refers to the leftist ideology which gives no path to redemption. Completely in alignment with my post.
Not my fault you misinterpreted me
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@Siam said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@MajorRage trivial transgression includes a Netflix executive saying niggar, a man teaching his dog treats, a $2million dollar a year news anchor asking why blackface is an insult and a weatherman saying coon instead of king.
I don't agree that this bears any relevance to the situation. I see where you are coming from, but to me, that's like basing a punishment for a kid shoplifting a bag of sweets to how you treat a serial killer.
As for the rest of your speculation about the girl's future - absolute rubbish.
It's my view on what her paths are in this country, it's not what I want to happen. Please don't confuse the two. I don't want her allowed back in, partially because I don't view any positive future for her, but mostly because I don't believe she has actually changed her views at all, and is likely more dangerous now than when she left, as I'm sure she learned some "skills" in her time abroad.
That's all the options for her is it? In a world with a 48 hr news cycle you see nothing in her future except EVERYBODY recognising her for ever or she commits mass murder.
No, I wrote majority - not everybody. This is super diverse, kind of fucked up Britain. Everybody has supporters / sympathisers regardless of their views. But the daily spreads today just about all have her picture, and real coverage. There is pretty much so no chance she can enter the country without huge controversy and noise.
You haven't really thought this through except through your own outrage view of the world.
As I said above, I disagree with this (I might have been a bit more direct). I cannot fathom why this woman deserves a single cent of public money over other, stronger causes which will help the country.
To reiterate, because this important. This has little to do with her decision as a 15 year old and everything to do with her comments on the interview. She has zero regret / remorse for any of her actions, actions which directly caused the passing of her two children. If ISIS was winning the battle there, do you think she'd be where she is? I sure as hell don't.
@Siam said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@Rembrandt but why go through some more virtual signalling from her. It doesn't work, except for those who already believe.
Who gives a fuck what she believes? She's no role model for anyone.
She leaves the country to fight for ISIS, then is allowed back in? That is a massive role model I'm afraid, for all the wrong sort of people.
But
Her story is a chance to educate.
So many of our universal learnings are through the public pitfalls of others. Archetypal stories.
Use her story to spread an outcome message.
She needs to be onboard for this. There is literally nothing in her of comments which suggest this could be her. Nothing. I do not believe the funding it would cost to try and deradicalize will be a cent with any return.
Are we battling extreme Islam or silly little girls from dysfunctional families?
Obviously the former. Her movements in the past and her comments in the now, for me, put her a long long way from being a silly little girl.
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@MajorRage I can't rebut what you've said because I can't confess to knowing anything about her current state of mind. I find it curious that you know what she thinks with such certainty.
I also find it curious that you assume an input and consideration for government funds and are sufficiently cognizant of appropriate government expenditure and return on investment values.
I don't think her world view and attitudes to life are fully developed and beyond alteration at the age of 19.
Mostly to me she is a valuable source of information and data about the grooming process. A 15 year old girl with 2 friends doesn't run away to Africa without an extensive network aiding her. These are the people you need to know and get. The radicalization process begins with first contact with a groomer - all the abhorrent criminal behaviour to follow starts right here. Use her to learn this.
Confine her until she gives proper info. I suggest you do this sweetly and in a way that she feels part of something with an assured future - that strategy worked before!Her story is a "What happens when you come home?" The answer can be "your life gets better, when you help," or "your life is over". What message would be better for the disenfranchised?
As for ISIS lost.
They probably have by some measure but while we're all gazing at the desert congratulating each other there are Muslims burning poppies at remembrance day parades, mosques have increased exponentially, the investigation of thousands of child rapings gets hamstrung because of cultural sensitivity, terrorism is still a threat for all large cities, police don't go to parts of malmo and it is a universal truth that no one is allowed to draw cartoons of acertain, but only one religion.But yeah, ISIS, the organisation whose sole purpose is to make infidels all over the world, bow and kowtow to the Islamic religion, has been beaten. We should be sweet from here on then...
That's all from me on this, thanks and back to Hillary at al
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How would anyone recognise her? She'd be wearing a burka the entire time.
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@siam What are your thoughts on this opinion piece in today’s Time mate?
Shamima doesn’t look like anyone’s victim
Janice TurnerFebruary 16 2019, 12:01am,That Shamima Begum shows no remorse after her four years with Isis gazing at severed heads suggests she has Stockholm syndrome, her family say. The father of another Bethnal Green schoolgirl believes she was “radicalised and brainwashed”. Labour’s Harriet Harman tweets that the girls were “used for sex”. Others speculate about rape or PTSD. No one, it seems, takes Shamima’s word that her life in the Islamic State was largely “the one I wanted”.
Why not? Must a young woman, especially a brown, Muslim one, always be deemed a limp, submissive victim? Here was a resourceful, clever, much-loved girl who, along with friends, accrued funds, bought flights and suitable clothes, created alibis and secretly executed an elaborate plan. Would Shamima be discussed in such passive terms if she were a male fighter or if she’d joined not the Islamic State but, inspired by yesterday’s school strike against climate change, an international eco mission?
Young people have long been idealists, the truest of believers, blinkered black-and-white thinkers, prepared to sacrifice most for a cause. Teenagers lied about their age to be conscripted into both world wars, ran off to join the International Brigades, to fight for civil rights movements or independence struggles. Shamima Begum was not a child abducted by the Lord’s Resistance Army or a Rotherham girl in care lured into the sex trade. Why can we not believe that, boarding the plane to Syria, she was passionate but clear-eyed?
The term “jihadi bride” doesn’t help, suggesting air-headed, hearts-on-pencil-cases romantic fantasies. And, sure, those researching the phenomenon of western Muslim women travelling to Syria have noted the powerful force of female desire. A virgin from a conservative family schooled in modesty, forbidden to meet boys, or even expecting an arranged marriage, could escape moral scrutiny and choose her beloved without parental veto. A brave, exciting, tooled-up bad boy at that. Moreover sex could not be wrong if it was in the cause of the caliphate, for Allah.
Yet these young women were also motivated by the same impulses as men. For excitement and adventure: on social media British girls, barely allowed beyond school and home, describe the adrenaline “rush” of crossing the Turkish border. For comradeship: recruited by other women, they enjoyed the solidarity in female-only houses, eating Nutella, playing with kittens, posting selfies with their “sisters”. For spiritual satisfaction: they longed for a society governed by “pure” Islamic principles, a bigger purpose in life than exams and chores and waiting for the weekend. Above all, like those building kibbutzim or hippy communes, they would be creating a utopian community.
Dr Katherine Brown, of King’s College London, an expert on British Muslim politics and gender, compares these girls to idealists who travelled to join the Soviet Union in the 1950s, believing that once in the perfect state they would become perfect people.
The notion that Shamima must be a victim derives from our disbelief that a girl protected by British laws would choose to live under Sharia repression. Yet the Bethnal Green girls knew that under Isis they would have kudos as wives of fighters, even more later as widows of martyrs. Mothers of “cubs of the caliphate”, they would be granted special privileges, housed and fed free.
She might not get to handle weapons — although in Isis’s dying days, who knows — but in Raqqa a girl, once insulted on British streets for wearing a hijab, could join the al-Khansaa brigade, enforcing petty dress codes on less pious women: punitive, state-sponsored Mean Girls. Like the wives of high-ranking Nazis who hung out at the Eagle’s Nest with Hitler kissing their hands, Isis wives may not have participated in atrocities but they must have relished their power.
The reasons Shamima and friends headed for Syria might not be irrational but calculated and cruel. Women can be as devout, bloodthirsty and politically fervent as men. Was Shamima unfazed by a severed head in a dustbin because she was mentally traumatised or because she saw that the brutal execution of fighters was necessary for the cause? (“I thought only what he would have done to a Muslim woman,” she reflected of one decapitated captive.)
Perhaps she spoke approvingly of the caliphate to Anthony Loyd not because she’s an emotionally subjugated Stockholm syndrome victim but because, military defeats and imperfect governance notwithstanding, she still believes in the Islamic State. If it had thrived would she, her Dutch jihadi husband and their unborn baby ever return?
When she or the other Bethnal Green girls find their way back to Britain, we must take their youth into account in assessing what they have done. And since we understand the power of social media to drive other teenage girls towards self-harm and suicide we cannot discount its role in fuelling jihad. But it seems patronising, even sexist and racist, to assume that Shamima is wholly a victim of circumstance, not an agent of her own destiny at all.
If a 15-year-old boy joined the Hitler Youth and by 19 was an enthusiastic junior SS officer, would you forgive him on the grounds he had been brainwashed? At what point does a young person stop being a gullible victim, malleable clay moulded by older minds and dangerous ideology, and become responsible for his or her deeds? A youth in Nazi Germany or indeed in Isis-controlled Syria had to submit to evil in order to survive. Shamima Begum travelled 3,000 miles to seek it out.
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@JC fuck.
That's got me improving on my opinion, thanks jc.I've fallen for a sexist (and ageist?) presumption.
It's true, why treat her differently to a male in exactly the same circumstances?
I still think she's a mine of information though, and think her experience and point of view must be recorded, but have changed to fuck you girly, you can have some concessions after you spill some beans. You knew you were up to no good, so tell us why. Educate us.Can't reconcile that she was onto a truth in her assessment that her chosen path is a good one, (Jesus Christ darling, you're asking for sanctuary from your utopia), but the narrative changes extremely from poor brainwashed lassie, to free willed capable youth, as appears the case here. I'd guess this particular case is a bit more exceptional than others or I severely underestimate the resourcefulness of modern 15 year old girls. Probably both.
That herald article quoted 900 Brits joining such groups, but didn't offer a time frame, so I'm thinking the radical grooming is a bit different to the community raping service.
And the numbers don't really make a case for prioritising the radical indoctrination over, say, the universal truth that nobody on this board would dare to upload an inoffensive stick figure cartoon of Mohammad on a bicycle.
I still think the "Islam's role in a western society' conundrum will not resolve itself peacefully if left unaddressedShamima doesn't get special treatment, she should be tried as a man would be. She's got some info though.
Sorry majorage, I lectured on a minimal knowledge base and must confess to being a bit struck by Tommy Robinson at the moment. I can't shake the horror of those rapes, because, due to my extensive experience in the prostitution industry , and my generally seedy life, I've been in the company of truly evil, inconsiderate men, groomer types and their superiors, so that particular cultural insensitivity issue cuts a bit deep. Hence my insistence that the wee girl was nefariously coerced
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This hit me haaard. "My battery is low and it's getting dark" 😭
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@taniwharugby said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@MN5 my 13 yr old son musta missed the steal a car phase!
I hope they throw the fucken book at the little fluffybunny. I would be beyond furious if my son's did that but I suspect his folks won't be.
On the plus side he's guaranteed Dunners will get a mention in the shit towns of NZ top 10.