Should the Crusaders change their name?
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@nzzp said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
On the other hand the firearms debate is/will be had and the events in Christchurch have expedited that debate.
That debate's a lot more one sided. Interested in the justification for allowing semi automatics on an A-class license; seems you probably need to have a clear and present need for it. Professional pest control .22 is the only one I can think about, where rapid fire really makes a difference.
There was a farmer who was reported to have handed his semi auto guns into police days after the massacre. Said he used to hunt and control pests with them but in light of the tragedy was willing to accept a little inconvenience. It might take him a little more effort but there are other less rapid guns he can use to do the job. I can't see why this can't be so for everyone. No one needs these high calibre weapons
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@canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
No one needs these high calibre weapons
Agree -- but I'm happy to just make it really hard for people with more significant background checks. Professional pest control is one area where semi auto would make a difference -- so to me, that's straight into Class E with stringent checks.
People who really really want guns like that can probably get them eventually - from gangs, or other means.
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@canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@nzzp said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
On the other hand the firearms debate is/will be had and the events in Christchurch have expedited that debate.
That debate's a lot more one sided. Interested in the justification for allowing semi automatics on an A-class license; seems you probably need to have a clear and present need for it. Professional pest control .22 is the only one I can think about, where rapid fire really makes a difference.
There was a farmer who was reported to have handed his semi auto guns into police days after the massacre. Said he used to hunt and control pests with them but in light of the tragedy was willing to accept a little inconvenience. It might take him a little more effort but there are other less rapid guns he can use to do the job. I can't see why this can't be so for everyone. No one needs these high calibre weapons
What are hunters going to hunt with? Crossbow? Or are you saying that there is no need for Semi Auto weapons (which I would agree with)
I don't have a problem with Bolt Action weapons although I prefer a semi auto when rabbiting, but it isn't a must have
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@Hooroo said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
What are hunters going to hunt with? Crossbow? Or are you saying that there is no need for Semi Auto weapons (which I would agree with)
saying that semi-auto weapons are very rarely a requirement, so should be under far stricter controls. Class E, and tighter controls. Some people do get real benefit from them, but it's rare (the example of professional pest controllers being one)
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@nzzp said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
No one needs these high calibre weapons
Agree -- but I'm happy to just make it really hard for people with more significant background checks. Professional pest control is one area where semi auto would make a difference -- so to me, that's straight into Class E with stringent checks.
People who really really want guns like that can probably get them eventually - from gangs, or other means.2
Once they get the gun it is apparently not difficult to obtain a high capacity magazine. Anything that looks like an assault rifle has to go
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@ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
I’m a Crusaders fan, so some might think I’m blinkered in my view of this. But for me this smacks of looking for something that simply is not there.
I get that sometimes certain events can lead to a situation where it is the “right time to have that debate”, but there needs to be a genuine issue to debate rather than some convenient headline. The name of a team that has been well known for more than two decades in my view does not remotely fit that.
On the other hand the firearms debate is/will be had and the events in Christchurch have expedited that debate.
On the other hand I'm a Crusaders fan too, and it doesn’t bother me if we change the name or not.
I support the team because it’s where I’m from and branding doesn’t change that stance.The right approach (in my opinion) is to hold discussions with the Muslim community and make a considered decision based on that feedback.
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@Hooroo said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@nzzp said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
On the other hand the firearms debate is/will be had and the events in Christchurch have expedited that debate.
That debate's a lot more one sided. Interested in the justification for allowing semi automatics on an A-class license; seems you probably need to have a clear and present need for it. Professional pest control .22 is the only one I can think about, where rapid fire really makes a difference.
There was a farmer who was reported to have handed his semi auto guns into police days after the massacre. Said he used to hunt and control pests with them but in light of the tragedy was willing to accept a little inconvenience. It might take him a little more effort but there are other less rapid guns he can use to do the job. I can't see why this can't be so for everyone. No one needs these high calibre weapons
What are hunters going to hunt with? Crossbow? Or are you saying that there is no need for Semi Auto weapons (which I would agree with)
I don't have a problem with Bolt Action weapons although I prefer a semi auto when rabbiting, but it isn't a must have
I meant no to semi auto guns
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@canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
Once they get the gun it is apparently not difficult to obtain a high capacity magazine. Anything that looks like an assault rifle has to go
It's not what it looks like, it's functionality. Hence why any reasonable argument has to include rifles like the Ruger Mini 14.
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@Siam said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC wouldn't the right decision be to have discussions with the whole community including muslims?
This is a members and community issue with inputs from other groups within the community as I see it
Not really, I don't see how anyone in my position can feel that strongly about it.
It's just a brand name to me, I'd support the team and continue to buy my season ticket no matter whats it's called because I'm from Christchurch. If it's offensive to the Muslim community in general then change it, the team name isn't something worth fighting about.
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@Siam said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC I see your POV, but a very small minority changing a whole community's team doesn't seem like an objective decision to me
Probably a typo on your behalf, but we are not changing the team, just the branding.
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@Siam said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC I see your POV, but a very small minority changing a whole community's team doesn't seem like an objective decision to me
If the franchise decide to change the branding or the name will you stop supporting them?
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@SammyC said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Siam said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC wouldn't the right decision be to have discussions with the whole community including muslims?
This is a members and community issue with inputs from other groups within the community as I see it
Not really, I don't see how anyone in my position can feel that strongly about it.
It's just a brand name to me, I'd support the team and continue to buy my season ticket no matter whats it's called because I'm from Christchurch. If it's offensive to the Muslim community in general then change it, the team name isn't something worth fighting about.
Offensive? That is the most inane reason to change anything. I am offended by your posts, should you stop posting?
Claiming something is offensive is just the lame brains attempt at making someone else change position on a topic. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Siam said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC wouldn't the right decision be to have discussions with the whole community including muslims?
This is a members and community issue with inputs from other groups within the community as I see it
Not really, I don't see how anyone in my position can feel that strongly about it.
It's just a brand name to me, I'd support the team and continue to buy my season ticket no matter whats it's called because I'm from Christchurch. If it's offensive to the Muslim community in general then change it, the team name isn't something worth fighting about.
Offensive? That is the most inane reason to change anything. I am offended by your posts, should you stop posting?
Claiming something is offensive is just the lame brains attempt at making someone else change position on a topic.But if those it affects (Cultures and Crusaders) are happy with the change, then does it matter?
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@canefan From my personal experience this is a dangerous argument because it is predicated upon the assumption that they haven't spend 22 years complaining and being ignored - as some reports say they have been about security.
I've posted upon this before so apologies but back in the 70's one of the things the Uni of Akl Engineering School used to do during Orientation and Capping Week was dress in grass skirts with naked torsos. They'd paint their chests and faces with swear words and basically spend the week being disruptive - running through the quad pulling women's dresses up in and out of lecture theatres making monkey noises doing "comic" hakas etc . Behaviour that was pretty much accepted as boys having fun but nowadays quite rightly would be treated as seriously out of line.
So in 1979 a bunch of Maori in cars hit the Uni and pile through the Engineering campus giving a few guys a bit of a hiding.
Cue outrage by the Herald and the majority of student body at this thuggish behaviour.
The President of AUSA was quoted by Herald saying as an individual while I abhore violence I can understand Maori frustration at this behaviour.
By this stage I had been at Uni 3 years and had never seen the student body engaged. What ho. Cue three days of non-stop debate in the quad - 99% of which was directed at the AUSA President for daring to criticise the Engineering Students who were just letting off steam and having some harmless fun. One of the common threads was pretty much what you said - they've had all this time to complain so why the biffo.
It turned out (documented proof was provided) that the Maori University Club had been protesting the Engineering students "likeable larrikinism" for over 40 years!!! So my point is we can't assume that no one has been protesting the use of the Crusaders name just because they've had 22 years to do so.
Final result was there was a vote by around 5,000 - 150 roundly condemning the actions of the Student Association President All the Engineering Students got was sympathy. I left at the end of that year but they carried on with their behaviour.
That episode more than any other illustrated for me how deeply entrenched racism was in NZ in the 70's. I'd already decided to head overseas at the end of the year and was bloody happy to do so.
As I said earlier in this thread I was shocked to discover when I returned 13 years later that not a lot had changed. I do think the situation has improved dramatically since then but what I'm learning is a sizeable number of non-whites don't agree.
Personally I don't favour changing the name because it is a win for the asshole but I think a debate at some stage after the season is over cannot hurt.
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@SammyC said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
I’m a Crusaders fan, so some might think I’m blinkered in my view of this. But for me this smacks of looking for something that simply is not there.
I get that sometimes certain events can lead to a situation where it is the “right time to have that debate”, but there needs to be a genuine issue to debate rather than some convenient headline. The name of a team that has been well known for more than two decades in my view does not remotely fit that.
On the other hand the firearms debate is/will be had and the events in Christchurch have expedited that debate jug.
On the other hand I'm a Crusaders fan too, and it doesn’t Jie bother me if we change the name or not.
I support the team because it’s where I’m from and branding ddoesn’t change that stance.The right approach (in my opinion) is to hold discussions with the Muslim community and make a considered decisions based on that feedback.
If they change the name I’ll still keep supporting them, but I’m yet to see any reason why this even needs to be debated other than a few fringe headlines.
Is there genuine concern in the community about this? And has there been concern over this for some time?
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Siam said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC wouldn't the right decision be to have discussions with the whole community including muslims?
This is a members and community issue with inputs from other groups within the community as I see it
Not really, I don't see how anyone in my position can feel that strongly about it.
It's just a brand name to me, I'd support the team and continue to buy my season ticket no matter whats it's called because I'm from Christchurch. If it's offensive to the Muslim community in general then change it, the team name isn't something worth fighting about.
Offensive? That is the most inane reason to change anything. I am offended by your posts, should you stop posting?
Claiming something is offensive is just the lame brains attempt at making someone else change position on a topic.Fine, change offensive to inappropriate if it’s that big a deal.
I don’t know why it’s such a big issue for guys like you? My point is that it doesn’t matter what the team is called, as long as we wear red and black and ply in Christchurch.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@SammyC said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
I’m a Crusaders fan, so some might think I’m blinkered in my view of this. But for me this smacks of looking for something that simply is not there.
I get that sometimes certain events can lead to a situation where it is the “right time to have that debate”, but there needs to be a genuine issue to debate rather than some convenient headline. The name of a team that has been well known for more than two decades in my view does not remotely fit that.
On the other hand the firearms debate is/will be had and the events in Christchurch have expedited that debate jug.
On the other hand I'm a Crusaders fan too, and it doesn’t Jie bother me if we change the name or not.
I support the team because it’s where I’m from and branding ddoesn’t change that stance.The right approach (in my opinion) is to hold discussions with the Muslim community and make a considered decisions based on that feedback.
If they change the name I’ll still keep supporting them, but I’m yet to see any reason why this even needs to be debated other than a few fringe headlines.
Is there genuine concern in the community about this? And has there been concern over this for some time?
I agree with you... more than anything it amuses me that it’s such a big deal for so many on here.
It’s a minor issue for me, so I don’t care if we keep the name or lose it. If it makes a few people happy to change it then go ahead.