-
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Exponentially more expensive. We only have to look at Germany to see this.
Germany planned their transition decades ago. Renewables have changed a lot since then. The assumption that this is the only outcome everywhere due to the path they took is an assumption that doesn't work everywhere.
Ze Germans have approximately 60GW of installed wind capacity. Add 47 GW of solar.
This was Germany in comparison to France less than an hour ago:
Note the difference in carbon intensity.
The Energiewende now enters the next stage of wind/solar integration where substantial grid expansion is required to balance variable renewables. Currently, Germany is falling behind with this task, leading to rapidly increasing grid stabilization costs.
This will be an interesting test for the Energiewende given the complexity and scale. Up to this point, the modular nature of wind/solar power made their expansion attractively simple. From this point onward, however, continued expansion will require large and complex national and international grid expansion projects. - https://www.energycentral.com/c/ec/tracking-energiewende-performance
Replacing 1000MW (for argument's sake) is cheaper with renewables, but then you have to add the capacity factor and network upgrades to that cost. One only has to look at Germany and the predicted cost of Energiewende by 2025 is over €520 billion (or ~850 billion dollarydoos). Hardly cheap and the only reason Germany can afford it is because they're beneficiaries of the EU.
Another important aspect to note is the level of subsidy required - they're currently paying 50% more than the European average according to that article.
Imagine if they spent that on fourth generation reactors instead - they'd power the EU.
Nuclear/ hydro needs to be in the vicinity of 70%. Renewables/ gas can fill in the remainder.
Can only think Canada fits this kind of number. And you can't have high penetration hydro without water.
Norway is practically all hydro, Sweden is hydro and nuclear, Ontario is nuclear and hydro, Yukon is hydro, Washington (State) is hydro and nuclear, Uruguay is wind and hydro, the South Island is basically hydro.
Moral of the story is do what's best for your region.
-
Closer to home, this is South Australia doing its bit:
We don't have large scale hydro in this country and what little we do have is best utilised as storage. Keeping in mind the continent is drought stricken.
South Australia has an abundance of sunshine (when it's not cloudy) and a fair bit of wind, but even then they're burning gas like it's going out of fashion to keep the lights on.
Even in Tasmania where there's good sites for some wind farms, the former leader of the Greens is busy trying to prevent installation in the world's biggest case of NIMBY hypocrisy. Proof these pricks don't believe their own placards.
-
@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Note the difference in carbon intensity.
Two reasons: France has a lot of nuclear, and all the coal in Germany is lignite (brown coal) with a bigger carbon intensity than the regular stuff.
Yet, despite this, and the cost factors you're talking about, France is planning transition to renewables as it's nuclear fleet ages.
-
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Note the difference in carbon intensity.
Two reasons: France has a lot of nuclear, and all the coal in Germany is lignite (brown coal) with a bigger carbon intensity than the regular stuff.
Yet, despite this, and the cost factors you're talking about, France is planning transition to renewables as it's nuclear fleet ages.
Because Macron is a virtue signalling moron.
-
@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Note the difference in carbon intensity.
Two reasons: France has a lot of nuclear, and all the coal in Germany is lignite (brown coal) with a bigger carbon intensity than the regular stuff.
Yet, despite this, and the cost factors you're talking about, France is planning transition to renewables as it's nuclear fleet ages.
Because Macron is a virtue signalling moron.
Oversimplifying it a bit I'm not sure his influence overrides every single financial hurdle by default.
France is regularly held up by the nukebois as a shining example, so why not maintain that low carbon intensity? Why aren't they a world leader in nuclear R&D given their long history? Whether it's their Gen 4 reactor?
Cost of running and developing nuclear is a big factor. They only really got into it after the oil crisis in the 70s, after all. That won't be as a big an issue going forward.
-
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Note the difference in carbon intensity.
Two reasons: France has a lot of nuclear, and all the coal in Germany is lignite (brown coal) with a bigger carbon intensity than the regular stuff.
Yet, despite this, and the cost factors you're talking about, France is planning transition to renewables as it's nuclear fleet ages.
Because Macron is a virtue signalling moron.
Oversimplifying it a bit I'm not sure his influence overrides every single financial hurdle by default.
France is regularly held up by the nukebois as a shining example, so why not maintain that low carbon intensity? Why aren't they a world leader in nuclear R&D given their long history? Whether it's their Gen 4 reactor?
Cost of running and developing nuclear is a big factor. They only really got into it after the oil crisis in the 70s, after all. That won't be as a big an issue going forward.
Because all available evidence points to the benefits. You only have to look at their neighbour to contrast.
-
Extinction Rebellion trying to block London City airport today. Some bloke got up as a plane was about to take off and walked up and down the aisle preventing it.
Others have glued themselves to the airport. I always wonder the same questions for activists who do this sort of thing. What do you do when you inevitably need to take a shit?
-
@MajorRage said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Extinction Rebellion trying to block London City airport today. Some bloke got up as a plane was about to take off and walked up and down the aisle preventing it.
Others have glued themselves to the airport. I always wonder the same questions for activists who do this sort of thing. What do you do when you inevitably need to take a shit?
-
kale is a great diuretic so I'm sure they are well blocked up
-
they've probably shit themselves numerous times at music festivals
-
-
The girl who cries wolf: “Alarmist language works.”
-
@MajorRage said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Extinction Rebellion trying to block London City airport today. Some bloke got up as a plane was about to take off and walked up and down the aisle preventing it.
Others have glued themselves to the airport. I always wonder the same questions for activists who do this sort of thing. What do you do when you inevitably need to take a shit?
It’s a false flag from the oil companies to make us completely despise climate activists.
That’s the only way I can possibly make sense of putting up the likes of Greta and these turds as the public image of their movement. They’ve put a lot of work into it , the arseclowns who glued themselves to the bank in Wellington had perfected their soyfaces well in advance.
-
@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It’s a false flag from the oil companies to make us completely despise climate activists.
That’s the only way I can possibly make sense of putting up the likes of Greta and these turds as the public image of their movement.
Its a good theory, but I guess we forget how controversial protests in the Vietnam era or Civil Rights - even Suffragettes over a centruy ago - were to the mainstream in their time.
Now they are ennobled because their cause is seen as just.
Will we look back in 20-30 years and say the climate protesters were equally justified?
As an aside: went to see Billy Elliot The Musical here in Sydney last night. Great production, talented kids. But the overriding thing for me was the portrayal of Thatcher-era mining protest. A year on strike is pretty fucking hardcore, and the government of the time was highly abrasive.
-
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It’s a false flag from the oil companies to make us completely despise climate activists.
That’s the only way I can possibly make sense of putting up the likes of Greta and these turds as the public image of their movement.
Its a good theory, but I guess we forget how controversial protests in the Vietnam era or Civil Rights - even Suffragettes over a centruy ago - were to the mainstream in their time.
Now they are ennobled because their cause is seen as just.
Will we look back in 20-30 years and say the climate protesters were equally justified?
As an aside: went to see Billy Elliot The Musical here in Sydney last night. Great production, talented kids. But the overriding thing for me was the portrayal of Thatcher-era mining protest. A year on strike is pretty fucking hardcore, and the government of the time was highly abrasive.
Hang on weren’t they coal miners making their living out of polluting the planet? Fuck those people
Also you went to see Billy Elliot ?
-
@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It’s a false flag from the oil companies to make us completely despise climate activists.
That’s the only way I can possibly make sense of putting up the likes of Greta and these turds as the public image of their movement.
Its a good theory, but I guess we forget how controversial protests in the Vietnam era or Civil Rights - even Suffragettes over a centruy ago - were to the mainstream in their time.
Now they are ennobled because their cause is seen as just.
Will we look back in 20-30 years and say the climate protesters were equally justified?
As an aside: went to see Billy Elliot The Musical here in Sydney last night. Great production, talented kids. But the overriding thing for me was the portrayal of Thatcher-era mining protest. A year on strike is pretty fucking hardcore, and the government of the time was highly abrasive.
Hang on weren’t they coal miners making their living out of polluting the planet? Fuck those people
Margaret Thatcher - Environmental champion- 95% reduction in the number of coal pits in less than a decade
-
@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Margaret Thatcher - Environmental champion- 95% reduction in the number of coal pits in less than a decade
Haha. Certainly a new way of looking at it.
I'll mention that to my wife from a Welsh coal mining valley. If you don't hear from me again I have been made into some sort of apparel.
-
@Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
The girl who cries wolf: “Alarmist language works.”
Simply not bright enough to realise she'd be held to account for the ridiculous hyperbole and be found wanting.
-
@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Hang on weren’t they coal miners making their living out of polluting the planet? Fuck those people
Funny how things change, eh? Now Australia is holding up coal as lifting people out of poverty - which is questionable at best, and the UK is powering itself for whole days on wind.
Also you went to see Billy Elliot ?
Yeah. Thought it would be shit but was highly entertained.
-
@NTA What is your take on coal mines in Oz in regards to emissions? The normal line I hear is its better to have them here than export the coal to nations that have low-tech or dubious regulations on burning coal. I know very little on it specifically.
-
@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@NTA What is your take on coal mines in Oz in regards to emissions? The normal line I hear is its better to have them here than export the coal to nations that have low-tech or dubious regulations on burning coal. I know very little on it specifically.
Broad topic
The black coal extracted from a lot of pits in NSW is probably the best option if you are going to burn something for energy. The brown coal we have in some fields here is unsuitable for export as it releases more CO2. I forget the exact ratio but on the emissions scale for the energy market here, black coal is about 1kg / kWh emitted and brown coal around 1.15kg / kWh emitted.
The problem then is transport - add in another 100g / kWh or so for getting it from the pit to the power station, but if you take it to ship* and send it overseas, it ramps up in percentage terms. And if you offload it to a port in Outer Fuckallistan, it probably doubles overall due to inefficiences in (as you say) lower regulation markets.
*Naval and air transport need a solution for long-haul. Is it hydrogen? Maybe....
People often quote natural gas as being a palatable alternative, and quote it much lower than the 1kg mark BUT you also have to be careful with the figures provided, because they don't account for fugitive emissions i.e. unintended release of other greenhouse gases due to faulty equipment or mining practices such as pressure venting.
Coal's CO2 just sits around until you burn it. Gas could just decide to escape - hence the issue where permafrost is melting due to unseasonably warm weather, and thus releasing more trapped stuff like methane, which in turn will create more warm weather.
Feedback loops are a bitch.
-
@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Margaret Thatcher - Environmental champion- 95% reduction in the number of coal pits in less than a decade
Haha. Certainly a new way of looking at it.
I'll mention that to my wife from a Welsh coal mining valley. If you don't hear from me again I have been made into some sort of apparel.
it's so important for a husband and wife to find hobbies they both enjoy
Climate Change