P and all that jazz

ACT Crusader

Interesting thread fullas. I've never experimented with or consumed drugs, tobacco or alcohol before, so can't talk about any personal effects on my own body/mind. My experience has been with assisting those that been users and even suffering from addictions. Sadly I've seen many 'casual' users of marijuana become addicted that they struggle to function. The casual use has been a major contributor to mental illness. I've tracked people from young teenage years when using first started - curiosity, influence from peers, mental health, family problems, were factors - and then into adulthood where even casual use has seen major deterioration in relationships, reliability, confidence, cognitive skills and many other areas of their life. The rehab is a roller coaster ride to say the least.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="559221" data-time="1455713454">
<div>
Interesting thread fullas. I've never experimented with or consumed drugs, tobacco or alcohol before, so can't talk about any personal effects on my own body/mind. My experience has been with assisting those that been users and even suffering from addictions. Sadly I've seen many 'casual' users of marijuana become addicted that they struggle to function. The casual use has been a major contributor to mental illness. I've tracked people from young teenage years when using first started - curiosity, influence from peers, mental health, family problems, were factors - and then into adulthood where even casual use has seen major deterioration in relationships, reliability, confidence, cognitive skills and many other areas of their life. The rehab is a roller coaster ride to say the least.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Thats the issue for me with addiction / issues. Most of the alcoholics / trainwreck drunks I know / knew were fucked up from the starting point. Same with drugs. Its not the drugs that wrecked them, the drugs haven't helped but their rush to embrace drugs or booze was driven by the fact they were already a mentalist. A much stronger focus on mental health is the key there, rather than limiting access to things people might choose to use to self medicate if their mental health issues are not addresed.
 
Its like banning cars because some people have abysmal eyesight. Maybe start out by getting those folks some glasses before they get a car.

Catogrande

You have a valid point there Gollum and whilst I am not endorsing the laissez-faire views of some on here in regard to drug use it does seem anecdotally that most fuck-ups would likely have been fuck ups in any event - it's just that the booze, drugs whatever has possibly speeded up the process and at the same time masked the real problems that some people suffer from. I have a prime example in my work place. There's a guy that has basically dragged the business up to what is a very nice, profitable source of income. He started this journey (c: J Mitchell 2003.) when he was in his early to mid twenties. He's always liked a drop or two although never handled it particularly well. He's also always been a bit of an angry young man and something of a loose cannon. Now that many of life's challenges and constraints no longer seem to apply to him he is pissed most days and completely ineffectual. Now the point of this rambling discourse is that everybody and I do mean everybody points to the booze and says "There's his problem. He's an alkie". The reality is that for some reason or another and bear in mind we're talking about an intelligent man here, there is something about himself that he hates and can no longer live with. It is this that is driving him on the path of self-destruction. The booze is just the vehicle he is using. In regard to the legalisation of some/any/all drugs, there is a reasoned argument for doing so. Legalise it, control it, tax it and you take away many of the problems - the lack of accountability for substandard shit, the consorting with criminals/gangs in order to access the stuff. I find myself actually thinking that legalising dope would be a good thing. Dunno about NZ or Aus but over here it is everywhere, all the time and as it becomes more prevalent the profit element goes down and so the juicing of it goes haywire. Like the booze during prohibition, it is not going away it is just getting skankier. The worry is that many feel it is more addictive than booze. I don't know if this is the case but what I would say is that I know huge numbers of people that drink (struggling to think or many that don't) and out of those I know few alcoholics (functioning or non-functioning). I know quite a few weed smokers and there seems to be a much higher percentage of those that are fucked up in some way or another by their usage. So based on my own experience I'd say dope is much more likely to be addictive, but as has been said, is it cause and effect or are these people looking for a crutch of some kind and would be a loser in any event - who knows? Oh and BTW, my colleague mentioned above is also now fucked up on dope, coke and meth - but that is not generally known so to most he is just a piss-head.

Siam

Good post Cato
 
The whole thing is bloody hard to pin down
 
On the one hand it's obvious that drugs seem to cause people to slide downhill fast with devastating consequences
 
On the other hand we have examples like Stephen Fry taking cocaine regularly to help with the daily crossword
 
Perhaps the common denominator is prolonged regular use?
 
Chuck in the observations that lots of our favourite singers and artists from decades ago certainly benefited from substances in a creative sense and I'm further confused.
 
Enough to drive a man to drink

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="559225" data-time="1455716547">
<div>
The worry is that many feel it is more addictive than booze. I don't know if this is the case but what I would say is that I know huge numbers of people that drink (struggling to think or many that don't) and out of those I know few alcoholics (functioning or non-functioning). I know quite a few weed smokers and there seems to be a much higher percentage of those that are fucked up in some way or another by there usage.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I'd argue that booze is legal, so everyone uses it & the small % who will go off the rails because they use it as a crutch do. But its a small % of the big chunk using.
 
Weed is illegal, so pretty much the only people using are those who have a propensity to go off the rails. So its close to 50% of users that are fucked up.
 
So you make weed available everywhere (through legalising it) you don't increase the messes using it, you are already at peak mess.
 
Its like coke, if you are a up yourself city boy douche bag trying to pretend you are Carl Ican you are already using coke. Legalising coke will not increase its use by junior douche bags at Goldmans Sachs. They are already at peak usage.

JC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="559228" data-time="1455722053">
<div>
I'd argue that booze is legal, so everyone uses it & the small % who will go off the rails because they use it as a crutch do. But its a small % of the big chunk using.
 
Weed is illegal, so pretty much the only people using are those who have a propensity to go off the rails. So its close to 50% of users that are fucked up.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
It's probably true that the only people using weed are those who don't care very much about its illegality, but I don't know if that's the same thing as a propensity to go off the rails. I see where you're coming from though.
 
On the other hand, of the people in society who have so far never used it because it is illegal we don't have any idea how many would have a go if it was legalised, and how many of them would become so enamoured of it they moved up to be TR's neighbours.
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
Its like coke, if you are a up yourself city boy douche bag trying to pretend you are Carl Ican you are already using coke. Legalising coke will not increase its use by junior douche bags at Goldmans Sachs. They are already at peak usage.
 
</blockquote>
 
For anybody wondering, Junior Douche Bag is an official title as Goldmans, just between Starbucks Runner and Complete Douche Bag.

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="559225" data-time="1455716547">
The worry is that many feel it is more addictive than booze. I don't know if this is the case but what I would say is that I know huge numbers of people that drink (struggling to think or many that don't) and out of those I know few alcoholics (functioning or non-functioning). I know quite a few weed smokers and there seems to be a much higher percentage of those that are fucked up in some way or another by their usage. So based on my own experience I'd say dope is much more likely to be addictive, but as has been said, is it cause and effect or are these people looking for a crutch of some kind and would be a loser in any event - who knows?</blockquote>
 
Weed is one of the least addictive drugs out there as far as I know. Some googling of the top 10 most addictive drugs has alcohol in the top 10 of all of them, but weed never gets a mention. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.duffysrehab.com/blog/10-most-addictive-drugs-in-the-world">https://www.duffysrehab.com/blog/10-most-addictive-drugs-in-the-world</a> <a class="bbc_url" href="http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/10/10/10-most-addictive-drugs-list/">http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/10/10/10-most-addictive-drugs-list/</a> 
Personally I never found it addictive. Enjoyable yes but I never went through any withdrawal if I didn't have any. Haven't smoked it in years but there was certainly no conscious decision to go "cold turkey" or anything. I certainly have no regrets about smoking it. But my life has generally been pretty good, so I never smoked it to 'escape' anything like many others that become reliant on it do. 
My wife went through depression and then alcoholism in her early 20s. The only reason she drank was because of her depression, and she is convinced that every single person that is alcoholic (or addicted to other drugs) is that way because of other underlying issues. I.E. drug abuse is not the cause, it is a symptom.

Siam

Some interesting points in this, if you've got a free 5 mins, it's probably worth a look

Some of the points the collective wisdom of the fern has also identified

jegga

Doing Stanhope " there's no such thing as addiction, it's just shit you enjoy doing more than real life". 
There's probably a fair amount of truth in that.

taniwharugby

So people create thier own cages in thier normal every day lives despite having supposedly all the good things to live for....luckily everyones lives are all mint with lots of other people to mingle with, balls and tubes and lots of sex so there is no need for anyone to become addicts, although could that lead to sex additiction?

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="559320" data-time="1455773993">
Some interesting points in this, if you've got a free 5 mins, it's probably worth a look <a class="bbc_url" href="

">

</a> 
Some of the points the collective wisdom of the fern has also identified</blockquote>
 
I recommended people read chasing the scream earlier in the thread. It's a great book

gollum

The best thing about that video is when he says "people choose reddit, video games, porn or drugs to fill the void". So now I feel smug about having not chosen drugs.
 
As the other 3 are awesome.
 
Also, thats a great video.

Rembrandt

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="559320" data-time="1455773993">
Some interesting points in this, if you've got a free 5 mins, it's probably worth a look <a class="bbc_url" href="

">

</a> 
Some of the points the collective wisdom of the fern has also identified</blockquote>
 
Great video. It just doesn't seem to quite marry up with smack addicts accounts of going clean or even folk trying to give up smoking, maybe early-on a socialisation intervention might be the key but regular users must also address a physical dependency.

Catogrande

Agree Rembrandt. Also the examples given of heroin addiction or the lack of, being the US grunts in the Vietnam War and hospital patients are very particular examples and not "everyday life" examples. The first lot are likely to be, in the main, normal people in an abnormal situation with peripatetic access to the stuff. The latter are not making a choice to have the "super heroin" and are again in an abnormal situation of requiring extreme pain control AND have the usage and dosage of the drug controlled. So whilst interesting, not in itself a complete argument. I actually found the rat story more compelling.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="559361" data-time="1455795995">
<div>
Great video. It just doesn't seem to quite marry up with smack addicts accounts of going clean or even folk trying to give up smoking, maybe early-on a socialisation intervention might be the key but regular users must also address a physical dependency.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Perhaps it is more psychological than we give it credit.
 
Alkies and ex junkies go their whole lives knowing they can't touch another hit, when surely all traces of the drug are gone. Agree there is an initial purging that movies and folklore portray as heinous in the case of opiate withdrawl, not saying it isn't but 40 years on they can't regress which must be mental rather than physical. Smoking withdrawls are over dramatised and apparently nicotine is gone in 3 days (easily measurable). The urge to smoke lasts long after
 
Then again pain killers don't work on heroin addicts which must be physiological.
 
Thought the rats endorsed the notion that if you've nothing really to do or live for then addiction is more of a probability, as evidenced by the socio-economic status of humans and life ruining addictions. Poor people hooked on Myanmars methamphetamine here, places like Baltimore and the Favellas of Rio etc
 
The rat study and the video produced a "yeah that makes sense" notion for me. Ergo, give people a purpose and a fair go and the drug problem could well expire.
 
Ok world leaders, time for some equality....yeah right

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="559365" data-time="1455804194">
<div>
Perhaps it is more psychological than we give it credit.
 
Alkies and ex junkies go their whole lives knowing they can't touch another hit, when surely all traces of the drug are gone. Agree there is an initial purging that movies and folklore portray as heinous in the case of opiate withdrawl, not saying it isn't but 40 years on they can't regress which must be mental rather than physical. Smoking withdrawls are over dramatised and apparently nicotine is gone in 3 days (easily measurable). The urge to smoke lasts long after
 
Then again pain killers don't work on heroin addicts which must be physiological.
 
Thought the rats endorsed the notion that if you've nothing really to do or live for then addiction is more of a probability, as evidenced by the socio-economic status of humans and life ruining addictions. Poor people hooked on Myanmars methamphetamine here, places like Baltimore and the Favellas of Rio etc
 
The rat study and the video produced a "yeah that makes sense" notion for me. Ergo, give people a purpose and a fair go and the drug problem could well expire.
 
Ok world leaders, time for some equality....yeah right
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That was the weakest part of the video, make the world into a utopia and there will be no more drug addicts. Thats as implausible as making everyone equal.

taniwharugby

Wonder how they could test rats for gambling addiction....?

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="559364" data-time="1455798136">
Agree Rembrandt. Also the examples given of heroin addiction or the lack of, being the US grunts in the Vietnam War and hospital patients are very particular examples and not "everyday life" examples. The first lot are likely to be, in the main, normal people in an abnormal situation with peripatetic access to the stuff. The latter are not making a choice to have the "super heroin" and are again in an abnormal situation of requiring extreme pain control AND have the usage and dosage of the drug controlled. So whilst interesting, not in itself a complete argument. I actually found the rat story more compelling.</blockquote>
 
The video is 4 minutes long, if you want something more in depth I suggest you read the book. He travels the world and studies addicts in many different situations to come to this conclusion. The Vietnam example is just one chapter

Smudge

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="559371" data-time="1455817877">
<div>
Wonder how they could test rats for gambling addiction....?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Generally they just look for a rat-sized copy of the Best Bets in their back pouch.

Mokey

I don't like it when addicts are referred to as losers. Yes they do bad/stupid things, and can hurt themselves and others with that behaviour, but instead of saying loser, fuck off, I'd rather pinpoint the time they went off the rails and know what happened. Maybe a stress meltdown. Maybe mental illness kicked in eg depression, which doesn't give a shit who you are, and is particularly nasty because it is 'invisible' and those on the outside can't understand why this smart, successful, well-off person could possibly feel wretched, so mock rather than help. Maybe a serious trauma from earlier years they have been repressing rather than dealing with is fighting to surface and the only way they feel a measure of peace is drinking/drugs/gambling etc, because facing that trauma feels too scary or big.
 
Any which way, addicts deserve compassion, tough love, no enabling, and professional help to climb back out of the abyss. Unfortunately most wont get it/or refuse it.

The Silver Fern

P and all that jazz