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Google Renee Richards. I’m sure it’s perfectly normal for a woman to enter the professional ranks aged 42 and get to number 20 in the world.
She said this herself:
Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion.“What a transphobe.
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It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
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@kirwan said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial oh fuck off with your white knight comments.
I have a daughter who is very sporty and that is just one reason I value woman’s sports. Allowing men to compete against woman’s is ridiculous to anybody with a working brain (who hasn’t swallowed the kool aid of the woke left)
No kool aid needed. I valued a person going about their life under the rules set in front of them way before someone coined the term woke for opinions that differed with their own.
I have already stated that I am not entirely comfortable that the IOC have worked out those rules correctly but I not going to wish misfortune on someone for following them (as was the comment that kicked this off)
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@kirwan said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial oh fuck off with your white knight comments.
I have a daughter who is very sporty and that is just one reason I value woman’s sports. Allowing men to compete against woman’s is ridiculous to anybody with a working brain (who hasn’t swallowed the kool aid of the woke left)
No kool aid needed. I valued a person going about their life under the rules set in front of them way before someone coined the term woke for opinions that differed with their own.
I have already stated that I am not entirely comfortable that the IOC have worked out those rules correctly but I not going to wish misfortune on someone for following them (as was the comment that kicked this off)
Shame you don’t value the biological woman getting screwed here.
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Some deleted posts.. be kind.. play the ball not the man.. blah blah
Why is this in Politics now? Certain people are blocked from posting in this sub forum because they get too emotional.
Moving this thread here should improve the standard of conversation. Hopefully.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
Assertion without evidence is tiresome.
Hubbard has to maintain a testosterone level lower than the lowest end of the male range. If you went to a doctor at tested at her levels you would be given treatment.
Are you saying that muscle once built won't disappear?Hubbard is starting from a higher base than a woman and actively training in Olympic weightlifting which will have a propensity to maintain muscle mass and strength above a woman's ability to develop it.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
OK I will dial back a touch.
Scientists seem to disagree on whether earlier gains/advantages in some areas continue and how long testosterone reduction takes (if at all) to balance things out more.The only scientists I've read who disagree are social scientists.
Olympics are constantly reviewing the advice and rules based on studies.
We must have different definitions of "constant review". The Olympics had not permitted trans athletes prior to Athens and then only if they had undergone gender reassignment surgery. The rules were changed in 2015 where they set a permitted level of testosterone level in serum at below 10 nanomoles per litre for one year. A bit odd 'given that women’s testosterone levels tend to range between 0.12 and 1.79 nmol/l'
Considering that 'natural' female testosterone range is anywhere between 8 and 60 ng/dl you can see why it is difficult. That '60' woman surely has an unfair advantage over the '8' yet that's ok.
Do you understand Venn diagrams or distribution curves?
Consider this though, doctors do seem to agree that hormone therapy for men that reduces testosterone carries side effects of loss of bone density, decreased muscle mass and fatigue. Quite common side effects when treated for prostrate cancer. Again though these side effects don't happen in everyone and do so to differing degrees.
Physiologist Professor Alison Heather: "Science demonstrates that high adult levels of testosterone, as well as permanent testosterone effects on male physiology during in utero and early development, provides a performance advantage in sport and that much of this male physiology is not mitigated by the transition to a transwoman"
Carry on with the white knighting though.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility.
The strict Olympic rules also have a cox or under 23's football reserve who plays 1 minute in the pool stage getting the same accolade as the fastest 100m in the world?
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
I hear you mate. It's the "up to them" principle for freedom to act anyway that's within the formal laws. My life philosophy depends on that principle.
I'd like to ask Lauren what her motivations are and how she sees her interpersonal relationships with fellow competitors. Given her obvious prowess at the sport I'd be interested to hear if she'd want to compete against men.
Sport has a socialising mechanism for blatantly lopsided contests. Generally they're discouraged and avoided.
And, while Lauren isn't to blame for the rules, she sure is benefiting a lot from them. She's not responsible for the rules but she has put herself in a position to have her character judged.
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@nzzp I agree she is just playing by the rules but the rules stink and she knows it. She knows she has an advantage. If I was competing against her I would boycott or go to another weight class. Getting a gold without opposition would be hollow. For most of us her getting one with competition will be hollow as well. She is not being destroyed for who she is but because of what she is doing. We still have an option of making a judgement of what is right or wrong, right? This problem won’t go away though. More and more trans will do this for their own egos. It is happening in the States and some states have banned trans from women’s sports at the collegiate level. Hopefully science will win out in the courts and not social science as someone mentioned.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general