Coronavirus - UK
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
It does annoy me when people gloss over the mortality risk of covid19, easy to rationalise about it being for the greater good to loosen everything off.
I forget the figures, but unemployment causes a really big number of premature deaths and illness as well.
I think there's a balance between Covid mortality and opening up the economy which is a really difficult call and I don't envy the politicians who have to make that decision.
I agree. There are no easy decisions. It is not a zero sum game. But seeing the news every night with pictures of dying people in packed hospitals and bodies everywhere is not good for morale either
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Of course, being in NZ I am biased, and we have been far from perfect, but full blown lockdown was painful. But at least it was relatively short by global standards at 6 weeks. Get things cleaned up and hit outbreaks hard when they come. Economically in NZ, apart from tourism mainly, the economy has been very strong in 2020
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
What needs to be done?
A good start might be calling it out for what it is: large groups of people of certain ethnicity whose selfishness and stupidity is risking the lives of others. No different to the successful calling out the groups of predominantly white people who refused MMR for their kids, risking the return of rubella.
Some communities have done great stuff challenging the negativity around the vaccine. Others have done bugger-all.
Edit:I'm grumpy
You're not an old man so it doesn't count.
It is different mate. For one thing children aren't at risk. We all know that.
I think it's just people who trust family and community more than government. That's always been the Asian way.
I've no problem with your point of view but don't think selfishness and stupidity is a fair appraisal.I think selfishness and stupidity couldn't be more spot on.
I can understand where the lack of trust in government could cause this, but there is a myriad of other avenues in the UK where you can learn that you should / must get vaccinated. In my view, if you live here, then it's your duty to the country and what it's been through to get vaccinated. BAME leaders are unanimous in their projection of the requirement for vaccination. BAME Dr's the same thing. If you aren't prepared to get vaccinated, then you have absolutely no right to take up an NHS bed if you get seriously sick.
It's selfish, and it's stupid.
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
Of course, being in NZ I am biased, and we have been far from perfect, but full blown lockdown was painful. But at least it was relatively short by global standards at 6 weeks. Get things cleaned up and hit outbreaks hard when they come. Economically in NZ, apart from tourism mainly, the economy has been very strong in 2020
Really? Has NZ done ok? I don't remember reading a single thing about that anywhere.
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@majorrage as I said, I understand your position but calling people stupid or any perjoratives is an exercise in futility. It's just something you do to make yourself feel superior. No one is under any obligation to give a fuck what you think. You simply have no authority or a positive effect.
Neither are you under any obligation to listen to or adhere to someone who thinks you are stupid and selfish. I think you're stupid. What happens next?
There's a lot of this on the fern (bogan names etc) and I'm always bemused at how serious people take their judgements of others. So much self importance. Characteristics of a safety first society i guess🙂
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage as I said, I understand your position but calling people stupid or any perjoratives is an exercise in futility. It's just something you do to make yourself feel superior. No one is under any obligation to give a fuck what you think. You simply have no authority or a positive effect.
Neither are you under any obligation to listen to or adhere to someone who thinks you are stupid and selfish. I think you're stupid. What happens next?
There's a lot of this on the fern (bogan names etc) and I'm always bemused at how serious people take their judgements of others. So much self importance. Characteristics of a safety first society i guess🙂
Did irony ever cross your mind about feeling superior when writing the above?
People that make selfish and stupid decisions aren't always stupid and selfish. There's quite a difference there which you may wish to ponder if you'd like to take this debate forwards.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage as I said, I understand your position but calling people stupid or any perjoratives is an exercise in futility. It's just something you do to make yourself feel superior. No one is under any obligation to give a fuck what you think. You simply have no authority or a positive effect.
Not wanting to get into a you're right and I'm wrong debate here.
I take your point about pejoratives, but seems to me that after all the efforts made to dispel concerns, it's a pretty reasonable argument to make that people knowingly and deliberately risking their lives and others are stupid and selfish and should be called out for it.
Particularly when the virus they are refusing to get vaccinated against has killed north of 120k people.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage nah, you win. This isn't a debate about making a situation better, it's a debate that you're right and your wishes override another person's decision about what to put into their own body.
Nobody wins when people don't get vaccinated, get sick and then infect others.
I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. I'm simply saying people are making selfish, and on the back of all the research/commentary about the safety of vaccines, and stupid decisions.
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage as I said, I understand your position but calling people stupid or any perjoratives is an exercise in futility. It's just something you do to make yourself feel superior. No one is under any obligation to give a fuck what you think. You simply have no authority or a positive effect.
Not wanting to get into a you're right and I'm wrong debate here.
I take your point about pejoratives, but seems to me that after all the efforts made to dispel concerns, it's a pretty reasonable argument to make that people knowingly and deliberately risking their lives and others are stupid and selfish and should be called out for it.
Particularly when the virus they are refusing to get vaccinated against has killed north of 120k people.
Maybe their pertinent statistic is 4.3 million who have recovered. Maybe they aren't in the at risk group for age and physical health. I don't agree that they think they are risking their lives at all.
Particularly when the virus they are refusing to get vaccinated for has been successfully countered by 99% of natural immune systems.
I know mate. You don't see a drastic risk in motorcycling and I don't see a drastic risk in covid. That's all the difference is.
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - UK:
Nobody wins when people don't get vaccinated, get sick and then infect others.
The only thing I think when I see that is - aren't others getting vaccinated anyway and won't get sick? If they're infecting others, aren't those just others that didn't get vaccinated also? Or am I being dim as usual.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
You don't see a drastic risk in motorcycling and I don't see a drastic risk in covid. That's all the difference is.
You didn't think of ANY of the ways where this comparison would be laughed at?
And @Victor-Meldrew & @MajorRage - come on guys, you see there's no point in debating this. You're using logic vs a religion. When has that ever worked?
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@bones said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage said in Coronavirus - UK:
Nobody wins when people don't get vaccinated, get sick and then infect others.
The only thing I think when I see that is - aren't others getting vaccinated anyway and won't get sick? If they're infecting others, aren't those just others that didn't get vaccinated also? Or am I being dim as usual.
Correct. And there goes the NHS getting overwhelmed again.
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@kruse said in Coronavirus - UK:
You didn't think of ANY of the ways where this comparison would be laughed at?
I'm offering a conciliatory gesture to a ferner i respect. We (me and vic) can go round and round for ever but at the end we simply disagree on what constitutes "life threatening" in our two different lives.
I'd much prefer to do that than toss out snide remarks from the sideline
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@majorrage genuinely rage, and not related to our views on the virus lethality.
After a year of incredible prioritisation of the NHS, when is the time you ask "is this nhs actually any good?". It seems awfully not up to the task of delivering health and improving lives of the people because for the last year it's been the people delivering health and improving life of the NHS.After a year, the much vaunted NHS has looked pretty fragile at every juncture.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
Maybe their pertinent statistic is 4.3 million who have recovered.
And they don't are about the 120k+ who have died?
Maybe they aren't in the at risk group for age and physical health. I don't agree that they think they are risking their lives at all.
They're not risking their own lives - but they are risking the lives of others.