Carl Hayman
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
Has this always been a problem? Or have recent rule changes and bigger, fitter players made it worse?
Feel terrible for the guy.
A bit of both I think? Increasingly bigger players playing more games since the professional era. I think it's really started to come out into the open in the last few (5?) years, based on research done in the NFL.
Tricky one to sue as the RFU seem to have been pretty pro-active in tightening concussion protocols, then clamping down on anything head-high. Very recent guidelines have been sent out to limit contact training per week.
I read some of the research a while back on tackle height and probabilities of concussion on tackler/tackled which led to carding almost all head contact now. It was very data driven.
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“When I first started playing pro rugby I remember having a Players’ Association meeting and the conversation was all about having a global window and a shorter season. We’re still having the same conversations about rugby now. There’s a number of changes we can and have to make to help protect the players of the future.
“I look at the NFL again and they have a 17-game season across four-to-five months with the possibility of a couple of playoff games. You compare that to rugby with a 10-month season.
“There needs to be a discussion about what constitutes an acceptable volume of rugby.”
It's sad but this may be the catalyst for the club calendar to be severely curtailed and a maximum number of tests permitted each year.
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@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
“When I first started playing pro rugby I remember having a Players’ Association meeting and the conversation was all about having a global window and a shorter season. We’re still having the same conversations about rugby now. There’s a number of changes we can and have to make to help protect the players of the future.
“I look at the NFL again and they have a 17-game season across four-to-five months with the possibility of a couple of playoff games. You compare that to rugby with a 10-month season.
“There needs to be a discussion about what constitutes an acceptable volume of rugby.”
It's sad but this may be the catalyst for the club calendar to be severely curtailed and a maximum number of tests permitted each year.
He was so in favour of a global window and a shorter season that he went to play in France. A country where club rugby is famous for its short seasons, not flogging players and a carefully managed rest period.
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@kirwan I can remember a kid I played against in the 1970s having to give up because of repeated concussions. He was still playing U16s at that stage. A body on the line openside flanker - easily their best player - made the big rep teams.
Will have got worse with bigger players and bigger collisions.
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
Has this always been a problem? Or have recent rule changes and bigger, fitter players made it worse?
Feel terrible for the guy.
My old man regularly plays tennis with two former All Blacks of his era ( in their 70s ) and both have had hip replacements which they put down to their rugby careers. They both say they wouldn’t have survived in todays game but that might be just false modesty.
I think the bigger hits from bigger stronger guys in todays game is a massive factor, more so than boxing despite lots of fighters being bigger than their predecessors ( take the recent fight between Fury when 6 foot 9 defeated 6 foot 7 )
We all know that every Rugby player is a gym junkie these days and there are monsters running round in virtually every position. It has to be a factor.
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
@mn5 need to speed the game up and have less subs to get the size off players then.
Absolutely. Impact subs who come on fired up with the sole intention of smashing tired ball carriers who have slogged it out for 60 minutes is a factor too.
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
@mn5 need to speed the game up and have less subs to get the size off players then.
agreed, more tired players are also going to do less damage to each other
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@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
“When I first started playing pro rugby I remember having a Players’ Association meeting and the conversation was all about having a global window and a shorter season. We’re still having the same conversations about rugby now. There’s a number of changes we can and have to make to help protect the players of the future.
“I look at the NFL again and they have a 17-game season across four-to-five months with the possibility of a couple of playoff games. You compare that to rugby with a 10-month season.
“There needs to be a discussion about what constitutes an acceptable volume of rugby.”
It's sad but this may be the catalyst for the club calendar to be severely curtailed and a maximum number of tests permitted each year.
He was so in favour of a global window and a shorter season that he went to play in France. A country where club rugby is famous for its short seasons, not flogging players and a carefully managed rest period.
That's a strange rebuttal of the endorsement of a shorter playing calendar. Can you point to Hayman knowing the effects of playing as much as he did back then, or the realisation that it would be him who may pay the price? It may be the benefit of hindsight for affected players, but we're talking about what World Rugby knew and didn't do, and what can be done in the future.
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
@mn5 need to speed the game up and have less subs to get the size off players then.
Definitely. The point has been made often enough that world Rugby's law interpretations have had a deleterious effect on the play of the game. Policies designed to improve player safety have predictably had the opposite effect.
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@kiwimurph said in Carl Hayman:
Carl Hayman doesn’t want to forget
The former All Black great has been diagnosed with early-onset dementia at 41.
Pleased you shared the original. Quality piece of journalism from Dylan Cleaver. No issues with NZ Herald and others writing "matchers" but nice to recognise the journo whose work on this issue no doubt contributed to Hayman sharing his story with him.
EDIT: and I hasten to add, this isn't a dig at JC! It was good he got the convo going with the Herald story.
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Haven't read the Cleaver piece yet, but the cynic in me suggests that this is a bit of PR for the law suit. Or is that obvious?
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
@smudge He's been writing some good stuff, been enjoying his site.
Yeah I became a paid subscriber straight away when he announced it. Ballsy move stepping away from the big sports outlet of NZ Herald to go it alone in a relatively new journalism sector in NZ, but his writing has always been a cut above.
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@chris-b Concussion caused dementia issues go back to the 60's (Mac Herewini, Waka Nathan) and surely before that.
the increase in size must have made an enormous difference though. You can see collisions are happening at greater speed with more mass involved. When I played 2nd 5 at school I was 1.88 and 85 kgs and was considered big...
As a slight mitigator much more is known about the dangers of head injuries these days and players welfare is far more important. I remember guys being knocked out cold and / or walking round in circles clearly in lala land and continuing on to finish the game. FFS injury substitutes weren't even allowed until the late 60's
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@dogmeat Given my perception that you're a similar vintage to Bill Osborne, you would have been "huge". Bigger than the AB second-five. You would have been playing prop at my school!
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Yeah - I can remember getting my nose broken and feeling pretty groggy. One of my teammates inquired whether I was alright - and I didn't even have the St. John's guys run on to have a look.
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@smudge said in Carl Hayman:
@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
@smudge He's been writing some good stuff, been enjoying his site.
Yeah I became a paid subscriber straight away when he announced it. Ballsy move stepping away from the big sports outlet of NZ Herald to go it alone in a relatively new journalism sector in NZ, but his writing has always been a cut above.
Same here. Satisfied so far - he's producing good stuff, I think it's value.
NZH were the big sports outlet - now they don't even send people along to NPC games. Modern media is just Twitter/Reddit clickbait, frankly.
I've also subscribed to Jarrod Kimber - I'll pay for people whose writing I think is good
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@chris-b Osbourne is a bit older than me but he was incumbent AB at the time.
My second position was back up lock so a strange mixture.
We had two decent locks though and I was nowhere good enough for the loosies so I was a slowish, limited 2nd five who could only pass in one direction but could run through a lot of back lines if they could get the ball to me ahead of the opposition flankers.
TBF we weren't very good but that wasn't just due to my inadequacies. We were also allowed injury subs. Our record was 5 in one game playing one of the big South Auckland schools where I was a midget my comparison to their backline who were all Lomu precursors. We got fucking hammered - physically and on the scoreboard. Beers tasted even better than normal post game
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I've said it a number of times before and will say it again: Rugby is a ridiculous and brutal game that would never be allowed if invented now. I love it but it's dangerous and serious injuries are inevitable. I have always found the length of the season and amount of rugby to be ridiculous. There were some noises about it at the advent of professionalism but they were soon ignored in the pursuit of TV content and dollars. Guys like Hayman and Thomson may just be the tip of the iceberg.
I really don't see how they can mitigate the harmful consequences without shortening the seasons but I can't see that happening. In terms of changing up the game or rules, I'm not sure what they can do. The suggestion of fewer replacements is good, but teams will probably then take the piss with injury subs.
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@dogmeat said in Carl Hayman:
@chris-b Osbourne is a bit older than me but he was incumbent AB at the time.
My second position was back up lock so a strange mixture.
We had two decent locks though and I was nowhere good enough for the loosies so I was a slowish, limited 2nd five who could only pass in one direction but could run through a lot of back lines if they could get the ball to me ahead of the opposition flankers.
TBF we weren't very good but that wasn't just due to my inadequacies. We were also allowed injury subs. Our record was 5 in one game playing one of the big South Auckland schools where I was a midget my comparison to their backline who were all Lomu precursors. We got fucking hammered - physically and on the scoreboard. Beers tasted even better than normal post game
Great to have you on the fern Alama Ieremia.
