Carl Hayman
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@mn5 said in Carl Hayman:
@dogmeat said in Carl Hayman:
@chris-b Osbourne is a bit older than me but he was incumbent AB at the time.
My second position was back up lock so a strange mixture.
We had two decent locks though and I was nowhere good enough for the loosies so I was a slowish, limited 2nd five who could only pass in one direction but could run through a lot of back lines if they could get the ball to me ahead of the opposition flankers.
TBF we weren't very good but that wasn't just due to my inadequacies. We were also allowed injury subs. Our record was 5 in one game playing one of the big South Auckland schools where I was a midget my comparison to their backline who were all Lomu precursors. We got fucking hammered - physically and on the scoreboard. Beers tasted even better than normal post game
Great to have you on the fern Alama Ieremia.
his short pass was a thing of beauty
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@nzzp said in Carl Hayman:
@mn5 said in Carl Hayman:
@dogmeat said in Carl Hayman:
@chris-b Osbourne is a bit older than me but he was incumbent AB at the time.
My second position was back up lock so a strange mixture.
We had two decent locks though and I was nowhere good enough for the loosies so I was a slowish, limited 2nd five who could only pass in one direction but could run through a lot of back lines if they could get the ball to me ahead of the opposition flankers.
TBF we weren't very good but that wasn't just due to my inadequacies. We were also allowed injury subs. Our record was 5 in one game playing one of the big South Auckland schools where I was a midget my comparison to their backline who were all Lomu precursors. We got fucking hammered - physically and on the scoreboard. Beers tasted even better than normal post game
Great to have you on the fern Alama Ieremia.
his short pass was a thing of beauty
Only one way though.
A pretty tongue in cheek comment. I loved Alama but the ABs didn’t use him as well as they could have.
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I am surprised we havent had more about guys from the 60s-80s with these kinds of issues, it was a different game back then, you just played on.
Things started to make a change for the bette rin the 90s, but with the money involved, there was a trade off
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In March 2016 Dylan Cleaver did a series of articles in the NZ Herald called The Longest Goodbye on five members of the 1964 Taranaki team who had dementia.
Dylan Cleaver: This is not an anti-rugby story
Latest breaking news articles, photos, video, blogs, reviews, analysis, opinion and reader comment from New Zealand and around the World - NZ Herald
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@taniwharugby said in Carl Hayman:
I am surprised we havent had more about guys from the 60s-80s with these kinds of issues, it was a different game back then, you just played on.
Yep, I wonder to what extent it's the tip of an iceberg. I'm reminded of the story of Greg Rowlands: Rugby and dementia: Frustrating lapses warned loved ones all was not well from 2016. He passed away earlier this year.
The first time it happened, Brent Rowlands was a little confused and more than a little peeved. The second and third times, though still only in his early teens, he recognised there might be something wrong.
There he'd be, dirty and sweating after rugby practice, waiting for his dad to pick him up. There was dad, Bay of Plenty rugby legend Greg Rowlands, pulling up the driveway of their Te Puna home, alone.
"Mum would be like, 'Where's the kids?'" Brent, now 36, says. "I've got two sons ... and you don't forget to pick your kids up unless something's wrong. There was multiple instances of that."
How old was dad at the time?
"He would have been 50 at the most."
Edit: it is also a Dylan Cleaver article.
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@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
“When I first started playing pro rugby I remember having a Players’ Association meeting and the conversation was all about having a global window and a shorter season. We’re still having the same conversations about rugby now. There’s a number of changes we can and have to make to help protect the players of the future.
“I look at the NFL again and they have a 17-game season across four-to-five months with the possibility of a couple of playoff games. You compare that to rugby with a 10-month season.
“There needs to be a discussion about what constitutes an acceptable volume of rugby.”
It's sad but this may be the catalyst for the club calendar to be severely curtailed and a maximum number of tests permitted each year.
He was so in favour of a global window and a shorter season that he went to play in France. A country where club rugby is famous for its short seasons, not flogging players and a carefully managed rest period.
That's a strange rebuttal of the endorsement of a shorter playing calendar. Can you point to Hayman knowing the effects of playing as much as he did back then, or the realisation that it would be him who may pay the price? It may be the benefit of hindsight for affected players, but we're talking about what World Rugby knew and didn't do, and what can be done in the future.
It wasn’t any sort of rebuttal at all. But on that point I doubt it will be proved that world rugby knew all about concussion and yet did nothing about it.
As for hayman, to all appearances money was a big driver in his career decisions. As a reminder he quit NZ rugby before the peak of his career to take up an offer with glamour club Newcastle falcons. Before joining the foreign legion at Toulon.
On a lighter note, one of the girls at my hall of residence hooked up with hayman after a night out in Dunedin in 98. He was just coming onto the scene then, so she got teased for scoring the fat prop.
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
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@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
“When I first started playing pro rugby I remember having a Players’ Association meeting and the conversation was all about having a global window and a shorter season. We’re still having the same conversations about rugby now. There’s a number of changes we can and have to make to help protect the players of the future.
“I look at the NFL again and they have a 17-game season across four-to-five months with the possibility of a couple of playoff games. You compare that to rugby with a 10-month season.
“There needs to be a discussion about what constitutes an acceptable volume of rugby.”
It's sad but this may be the catalyst for the club calendar to be severely curtailed and a maximum number of tests permitted each year.
He was so in favour of a global window and a shorter season that he went to play in France. A country where club rugby is famous for its short seasons, not flogging players and a carefully managed rest period.
That's a strange rebuttal of the endorsement of a shorter playing calendar. Can you point to Hayman knowing the effects of playing as much as he did back then, or the realisation that it would be him who may pay the price? It may be the benefit of hindsight for affected players, but we're talking about what World Rugby knew and didn't do, and what can be done in the future.
It wasn’t any sort of rebuttal at all. But on that point I doubt it will be proved that world rugby knew all about concussion and yet did nothing about it.
As for hayman, to all appearances money was a big driver in his career decisions. As a reminder he quit NZ rugby before the peak of his career to take up an offer with glamour club Newcastle falcons. Before joining the foreign legion at Toulon.
On a lighter note, one of the girls at my hall of residence hooked up with hayman after a night out in Dunedin in 98. He was just coming onto the scene then, so she got teased for scoring the fat prop.
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
Based on what ? I’m not being smart, I genuinely don’t know why he’d rank above guys like Olo Brown or Owen Franks given Red Beard and Bart don’t come here anymore.
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@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
@antipodean said in Carl Hayman:
“When I first started playing pro rugby I remember having a Players’ Association meeting and the conversation was all about having a global window and a shorter season. We’re still having the same conversations about rugby now. There’s a number of changes we can and have to make to help protect the players of the future.
“I look at the NFL again and they have a 17-game season across four-to-five months with the possibility of a couple of playoff games. You compare that to rugby with a 10-month season.
“There needs to be a discussion about what constitutes an acceptable volume of rugby.”
It's sad but this may be the catalyst for the club calendar to be severely curtailed and a maximum number of tests permitted each year.
He was so in favour of a global window and a shorter season that he went to play in France. A country where club rugby is famous for its short seasons, not flogging players and a carefully managed rest period.
That's a strange rebuttal of the endorsement of a shorter playing calendar. Can you point to Hayman knowing the effects of playing as much as he did back then, or the realisation that it would be him who may pay the price? It may be the benefit of hindsight for affected players, but we're talking about what World Rugby knew and didn't do, and what can be done in the future.
It wasn’t any sort of rebuttal at all. But on that point I doubt it will be proved that world rugby knew all about concussion and yet did nothing about it.
As for hayman, to all appearances money was a big driver in his career decisions. As a reminder he quit NZ rugby before the peak of his career to take up an offer with glamour club Newcastle falcons. Before joining the foreign legion at Toulon.
On a lighter note, one of the girls at my hall of residence hooked up with hayman after a night out in Dunedin in 98. He was just coming onto the scene then, so she got teased for scoring the fat prop.
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
Apologies, I get your point. I'm interested in what the players assert World Rugby knew and didn't act on. That suggests to me, outside of discovery where you can't generally just go fishing for information to make a case, that the players must also have known. If that assumption is true, then what degree are they culpable for the injuries they faced over their career?
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@dogmeat said in Carl Hayman:
@chris-b Osbourne is a bit older than me but he was incumbent AB at the time.
My second position was back up lock so a strange mixture.
We had two decent locks though and I was nowhere good enough for the loosies so I was a slowish, limited 2nd five who could only pass in one direction but could run through a lot of back lines if they could get the ball to me ahead of the opposition flankers.
TBF we weren't very good but that wasn't just due to my inadequacies. We were also allowed injury subs. Our record was 5 in one game playing one of the big South Auckland schools where I was a midget my comparison to their backline who were all Lomu precursors. We got fucking hammered - physically and on the scoreboard. Beers tasted even better than normal post game
We had a decent team for Canterbury country rugby (most years), but I ended up as a small and slow fullback. Luckily it was still the days when back play was discouraged so the main job was to catch the ball and kick it out. Pretty much every time the ball got kicked to me the advice came from the sideline - not to do anything stupid. And the applause came when I kicked it out.
Did you notice that fly-kick that Sevu Reece did against the Jaapies? Beaudy did one against Wales as well.
I would have been fucking fried for those!
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@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
Olo Brown has entered the chat. Straightest back in the game - and not tall enough to play at 8
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@nzzp said in Carl Hayman:
@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
Olo Brown has entered the chat. Straightest back in the game - and not tall enough to play at 8
Never guessed you were a fan
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This post is deleted!
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@nzzp said in Carl Hayman:
@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
Olo Brown has entered the chat. Straightest back in the game - and not tall enough to play at 8
Hello Olo. Nice to meet you. Don’t feel obliged to use the third person. You are my second best prop after Hayman. Sorry! Don’t take it badly.
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
Has this always been a problem? Or have recent rule changes and bigger, fitter players made it worse?
Feel terrible for the guy.This is, of course, the most awful news - a young man expert in his field cut down in his prime.
There are many reasons for this mighty problem, Kirwan, some of them canvassed here. The lawyers are gearing up, the anti-sport crusaders are on the job, politicians all jumpy about which horse to back ... and nowhere near enough emphasis on measures to minimise the risk by this weekend! They have had long enough to have that down pat.
A few words on a part of it ...
I have had plenty to say on the subject in recent years as I watched Union and League fans, coaches, media and advertising managers find excuses for head high tackling.
For example, "Intent" became sexy, as if a referee moving at x miles per hour could assess what a culprit had in his mind immediately before the event notwithstanding neither he nor anyone else had been studying his mannerisms, facial expression and FacePlant ravings that day, that week or that year! Television broadcasters can assess "intent" from 75 yards away, three stories up in the media box.
Years ago tackling high was uncommon. The emphasis was on an individual bringing the man down quickly so that he would "die with the ball". To do it alone was honourable.
The earliest sessions (and forevermore) with the coach under whom I captained were focused on disciplined defence, using one of three techniques ... from behind, arms around the thighs; from the side with your head behind the other bloke's backside - too low to be palmed off; and from in front, sit on the ground and as he trundles over the top wrap the arms around his thighs and go with him as he tackles himself.
That last one was good for the little fellas - I watched Patrick Lambie execute it perfectly when he emerged in the Currie Cup a decade or so ago.
Perhaps 40% of the time a team mate would come in higher up, wrapping his arms around the mid-section to lock up the ball.
This is what we aspired to: <a href=tinyurl.com/JimmyLisle1964 >Jimmy Lisle, Wallaby and Kangaroo</a> ... Aaarrrggghhh - the image link process has got me baffled - try this tinyurl.com/JimmyLisle1964
The point of all that is that he directed us to tackle below the waist and gave his good reasons why. That coach built his (League) teams on this platform and took them to a half dozen grand finals in a decade.
There was no compelling reason to change the behaviours and safety standards.
Billy the blue fella could tell you the codes made a grave mistake in permitting, ultimately, arms free erect body charges at warp speed in a Colosseum setting. Influential competing interests stifled that notion.
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@mick-gold-coast-qld I’m a dumbass. Now we’ve got that out of the way we can dismiss any type of derogatory retorts.
But the necessity to go higher surely is to negate the offload offense heavy strategy the modern game has become. You can not simply apply a cookie cutter type defense that worked years ago to the modern game. Cricket score would follow.
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I too have worn the groove out on the same record but if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Head injury resulting in the player leaving the field AUTOMATIC 3 weeks off
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@raznomore said in Carl Hayman:
@mick-gold-coast-qld I’m a dumbass. No we’ve got that out of the way we can dismiss any type of derogatory retorts.
But the necessity to go higher surely is to negate the offload offense heavy strategy the modern game has become. You can not simply apply a cookie cutter type defense that worked years ago to the modern game. Cricket score would follow.
I opened with "A few words on a part of it ...", raznomore, precisely because this is one of those blog thingys where sensitive egos must be seen to be right, by belting a bloke for something they reckon he should have said, or did say but really didn't.
Unfortunately it is not the Anglers Arms at Southport where you can argue the toss and be readily understood, agree, disagree and "Who's shout is it? ... and I need a couple of steel fixers for a big pour on Friday." (... it's like an informal construction employment service centre there).
I don't post here as often as I could because I have been warned off for being old, very old, stupid, private school
ignorant and a few other things I do not recall, by an important fella who knows stuff. Ahhhh, the intolerant young. 
I have made an exception just now, briefly, because I fear for the future of the great game I have served as a loyal acolyte all my life. I will attempt to be brief.
"the offload offense heavy strategy the modern game has become" started sometime before this century - the mighty Arthur Beetson was offering master classes in that in the late 1960s, as was Dick Thornett and Dick Huddart and Merv Hicks.
Opposing coaches countered by allocating a couple more tacklers who would climb all over them, like lions on an antelope, to smother the ball. I will say it didn't negate him - Arthur was too clever by half!
I'm not looking for something from "my times" for nostalgic reasons. I am recounting something which worked and which may be adapted rather than summarily discarded.
I want the custodians - Bennett, for example - to act responsibly, put aside their personal agendas and lead the substantial, immediate improvements that must be made, to protect the boofheads in their care from their own ignorance. There will be no game, in either code, if they do not take control and apply their skills to pass it on to the next lot in better shape than they found it.
I do appreciate your response, raznomore.
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@mikethesnow said in Carl Hayman:
I too have worn the groove out on the same record but if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Head injury resulting in the player leaving the field AUTOMATIC 3 weeks off
We used to have that didn't we? Now there's more science and the stand down gets to last longer if you're not right.
I assume though you're proposing a minimum.
The other consideration is the micro concussions. In themselves not enough to cause concussion but cumulatively they fuck your brain up.
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@booboo said in Carl Hayman:
@mikethesnow said in Carl Hayman:
I too have worn the groove out on the same record but if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Head injury resulting in the player leaving the field AUTOMATIC 3 weeks off
We used to have that didn't we? Now there's more science and the stand down gets to last longer if you're not right.
I assume though you're proposing a minimum.
The other consideration is the micro concussions. In themselves not enough to cause concussion but cumulatively they fuck your brain up.
Yes we used to
And yes minimum stand down
Micro-concussions
YC or RC path they're furrowing now
The better teams will adapt
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