Crusaders v Waratahs

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="582124" data-time="1464054419">
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Don't agree. 
A flick on is not a catch and pass but extremely skillful. 
A tap back from a lineout: should Whitelock have been penalised in the Semi for his steal? 
Tamanivalu's flick up on the weekend was extremely skillful. 
The reason you are penalised for deliberately knocking the ball forward is the same reason a scrum is set if you accidently propell the ball forward. The laws of the game say you can't propell it forward. Thus if you do it deliberately you are to be penalised. The laws of the game say you may propell the ball backwards. 
the interpretation of "reaching out to block the pass and the ball goes forward" is that you are deliberately propelling it forward. Whether you are or not. Sometimes that's a harsh call and there is genuine intent to catch it (or at the very least not propell it forward). But that's the interpretation. 
Makes sense and I'm not sure why this us even a thing.
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Well yes, it's not cut and dry and you make good points as to why.
 
Regardless, a hand stuck out in the way of a pass to score a try seems to have completely different outcomes depending on the luck of the bounce. I'm just not sure that rule is right.

booboo

I still think it's interpretation assigning intent when there may not be. 
Stick out one hand = deliberate 
Stick out two = trying to catch it 
Not always the case but that's generally how it's ruled

Gary

Bloody hell you guys get caught up on the trival "can you flick/tap the ball backwards" happens every game of course you can. There is a big difference between forwards and backwards ~ you can pass the ball backwards but not forwards ~ you can tap the ball ball backwards but not forwards. I'm assuming that a player would be yellow carded for deliberating passing the ball forward to prevent a try (if you were dumb enough to do it ~ I'm picking one of the blues back three will do it in the next few weeks) same as knocking(tapping) the ball forward to prevent a try.
 
Hell should Franks be penalised for his amazing bit of skill to header a ball backwards straight into the arms of Dagg for the clearance. I bet Messi couldn't do that with an oval ball.

booboo

There's probably no reason you can't head the ball forward ... it's not a knock on ...

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="582267" data-time="1464100392">
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Bloody hell you guys get caught up on the trival "can you flick/tap the ball backwards" happens every game of course you can. There is a big difference between forwards and backwards ~ you can pass the ball backwards but not forwards ~ you can tap the ball ball backwards but not forwards. I'm assuming that a player would be yellow carded for deliberating passing the ball forward to prevent a try (if you were dumb enough to do it ~ I'm picking one of the blues back three will do it in the next few weeks) same as knocking(tapping) the ball forward to prevent a try.
 
Hell should Franks be penalised for his amazing bit of skill to header a ball backwards straight into the arms of Dagg for the clearance. I bet Messi couldn't do that with an oval ball.
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Ok, maybe I should rewrite what I've written to just say control the ball. Yes, I think whenever a player goes for the ball, he should be looking to control it. That's much better.
 
 
If you shove your hand out to intentionally block a try scoring pass, why should it be no sanction if you get a lucky bounce backwards from your arm, but penalty try and yellow card if you get an unlucky bounce forwards off your hand/arm.

Hooroo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="582361" data-time="1464135281">
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Ok, maybe I should rewrite what I've written to just say control the ball. Yes, I think whenever a player goes for the ball, he should be looking to control it. That's much better.
 
 
If you shove your hand out to intentionally block a try scoring pass, why should it be no sanction if you get a lucky bounce backwards from your arm, but penalty try and yellow card if you get an unlucky bounce forwards off your hand/arm.
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I'm playing devils advocate a bit here as I understand what you are saying, but I also liken it to a chip and chase that is slightly out of reach and you make a grab from it.There is probably not going to be much control at first.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="582363" data-time="1464135580">
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I'm playing devils advocate a bit here as I understand what you are saying, but I also liken it to a chip and chase that is slightly out of reach and you make a grab from it.There is probably not going to be much control at first.
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It comes down to intention (which I'm the first to admit is going to be bloody hard to ref). If you chip and chase and you dive for it to score or regather, undoubtedly every part of you is trying to control the ball. When you just shove your mitt out to block a pass, you are making no effort at all, just trying to disrupt.

taniwharugby

but in that one you aren't contesting the ball with someone else, you just cant control it, or maybe I am not getting what you are saying?
 
As I said earlier, I can see the validity in the original question and am highly amused at some of the comments about 'how is this a thing' 'this is the biggest load of BS ever on TSF' etc.
 
Fark this is a forum where people ask all sorts of questions, yes some may seem silly to others (and yes you will get called on it) but even with all the arguments about this topic, I can still see the validity in the question...but given how grey the rule is on the deliberate knock down anyway it would just add another layer to a rule book that seems to be constantly expanding for very minimal impact overall.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="582272" data-time="1464116221">
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There's probably no reason you can't head the ball forward ... it's not a knock on ...
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You could win a world up with that sort of planned move. First five fires the ball at the second five's head - who nods it forward and the centre scores as the defense is thrown into disarray. :)

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="582368" data-time="1464136249">
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but in that one you aren't contesting the ball with someone else, you just cant control it, or maybe I am not getting what you are saying?
 
As I said earlier, I can see the validity in the original question and am highly amused at some of the comments about 'how is this a thing' 'this is the biggest load of BS ever on TSF' etc.
 
Fark this is a forum where people ask all sorts of questions, yes some may seem silly to others (and yes you will get called on it) but even with all the arguments about this topic, I can still see the validity in the question...but given how grey the rule is on the deliberate knock down anyway it would just add another layer to a rule book that seems to be constantly expanding for very minimal impact overall.
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Yep - seems like a sensible point to me. So far I think Nepia's answer is the best - proving that people from Hawkes Bay aren't quite as stupid as we think. :)

Hooroo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="582367" data-time="1464136227">
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It comes down to intention (which I'm the first to admit is going to be bloody hard to ref). If you chip and chase and you dive for it to score or regather, undoubtedly every part of you is trying to control the ball. When you just shove your mitt out to block a pass, you are making no effort at all, just trying to disrupt.
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...although.... that's what intercepts always look like in close quarters. Most is in hope and luck.
 
I do hear you though and sometimes it looks obvious and should be penalised heavily

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="582369" data-time="1464136357">
You could win a world up with that sort of planned move. First five fires the ball at the second five's head - who nods it forward and the centre scores as the defense is thrown into disarray. :)</blockquote>
 
Wasn't there something around Spencer using his knee to do a chip in behind a few years ago? I remember he did it once at Eden Park and set up a try and then, this is the bit I can't quite remember, tried it again in SA and the ref called him up on it? Something about not being in the spirit of the game?

Hooroo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="582372" data-time="1464137050">
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Wasn't there something around Spencer using his knee to do a chip in behind a few years ago? I remember he did it once at Eden Park and set up a try and then, this is the bit I can't quite remember, tried it again in SA and the ref called him up on it? Something about not being in the spirit of the game?
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What a cracking memory! 
 
Now that you tell it, I vaguely remember that too

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="582372" data-time="1464137050">
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Wasn't there something around Spencer using his knee to do a chip in behind a few years ago? I remember he did it once at Eden Park and set up a try and then, this is the bit I can't quite remember, tried it again in SA and the ref called him up on it? Something about not being in the spirit of the game?
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<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=21&language=EN'>http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=21&language=EN</a>
 
21.3 (b) says they banned it soon after. Too creative... what a player he was. To think how much I used to despise him as a younger lad ...

Hooroo

That talks about how Pen and Free kicks are to be taken, rather than in play

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="582375" data-time="1464137881">
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That talks about how Pen and Free kicks are to be taken, rather than in play
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True, dat. I read too fast.

antipodean

That's because you're not allowed to kick with the knee:
 
Kick: A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="582370" data-time="1464136568">
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Yep - seems like a sensible point to me. So far I think Nepia's answer is the best - proving that people from Hawkes Bay aren't quite as stupid as we think. :)
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Yes we are, well Zac Guildford is at least, he's actively chosen the NSW/ Ta$man double as teams to play for.

barbarian

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="582372" data-time="1464137050">
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Wasn't there something around Spencer using his knee to do a chip in behind a few years ago? I remember he did it once at Eden Park and set up a try and then, this is the bit I can't quite remember, tried it again in SA and the ref called him up on it? Something about not being in the spirit of the game?
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Stirling Mortlock scored a try for the Wobs once where a pass cannoned off his shoulder over the defensive line, and he chased through after it and scored.

taniwharugby

I remember an NPC game where Tonu'u went for the intercept (was only about 10m out) and the ref ruled he deliberately knocked it forward before re-gathering it and scoring so disallowed the try.

The Silver Fern

Crusaders v Waratahs