Foster, Robertson etc
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Sounds more like an argument about Brexit.
Oh let's leave the EU! Ok, and go to what, exactly? Oh the Tories will work everything out. Ok!Seriously?
On the ABs, what can people do apart from demand player changes or coaching changes?
Apply some clear-headed thinking for a start. At the moment much of the comment in the media is akin to some sort of emotional witch-hunt.
That is not unpicking, that is avoiding the real question, on what criteria was his contract extended? What are the KPIs that he is apparently hitting? He selected his assistant coaches, if the NZR don't think 2 (or 3?) performed, how is that not a reflection on his judgement?
That's not the real question in the real world, not even remotely. You are looking into what happened in the past when we need to ask how we improve things going forward. The real question is would a new coach do any better and how long do we give him to prove himself & what happens if there's no improvement. What do we do then?
So, not losing 7 tests in 24 overall would be a start. So close to a 75% average after 2 years. Too difficult?
Which is what Foster pretty much achieved in his first 2 years before he was re-appointed. What happens if the new bloke does the same? Sack him, after he loses 4/5 games like people want Foster sacked, or keep him until the end of his contract to give him a chance of hitting the 75% target?
Here is an easier one: not losing a series at home to a country we never lost a series at home before could be another one. OUT!
Unworkable. If Foster had gone after the poor 2021 EOYT results and, say, Robertson had taken over and lost to Ireland in his first 2 tests in charge, Robertson would be sacked after 2 Tests and you'd have to get (yet) another coach in to do the 3rd Test.
AND: Responsibility for assistant coach selection and performance. If you lose half your assistant coaching team, for example. OUT!
And by doing that you'd actually take away any responsibility for assistant coach selection and performance. If his assistants were not performing and he wanted to cut them loose to improve things, he'd have a disincentive to do that as he'd be given the sack for not keeping his assistants. Worse position than we are in now.
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@stodders Hansen still hadn't played his best side until the SF. Everything was built around mobile forwards and SBW. Most of which hadn't played as a unit over a good chunk of time because SH kept changing it. I mean, Ryan Crotty and ALB were doing ok and could have been better with more time and then he dumps Bender. He had lost the plot completely by 2019 which started EOYT 2016.
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@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Billy-Tell Mitch was a monumental bellend but he won two Tri-Nations and brought back the Bled. He also unearthed a wealth of talent, many of whom when on to win World Cups.
He was a good coach but insufferable with that condescending “journey” BS. He also probably cost himself a RWC with the mehrtens/Cullen/Umaga treatment.
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Billy-Tell Mitch was a monumental bellend but he won two Tri-Nations and brought back the Bled. He also unearthed a wealth of talent, many of whom when on to win World Cups.
He was a good coach but insufferable with that condescending “journey” BS. He also probably cost himself a RWC with the mehrtens/Cullen/Umaga treatment.
Cueball, whilst being a very knowledgeable guy rugby wise and possesses some serious coaching abilities, has been toxic in virtually every coaching environment he’s been in.
How many coaching gigs has he been sidelined from?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Joe Rocks, translated from French interview
Moreover, the attack game is not varied enough and faced with these increasingly better-organised defences, these movements, which worked until now, no longer work
There's not any innovation, that's totally on the coach. We lose cos the team is based on X factor and individual brilliance, and is not enough. We actually need to work for victory. The excellent Nick Bishop has any analysis on Rugby Pass about the midfield, and the crap we see now. Let's play a fullback and a wing in the midfield, cos X factor, yeah that'll work. And that's just one area of muddled X factor thinking of many.
Until foster is gone, the ABs are in a tactics free fall.
For the last six years, New Zealand have increasingly reached towards ‘X-factor’, rather than players steeped in the technical and physical demands of play at numbers 10, 12 and 13
Interesting that he is one of the few press that agree with the majority opinion here, is not just foster, but late Hansen as well
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@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Joe Rocks, translated from French interview
Moreover, the attack game is not varied enough and faced with these increasingly better-organised defences, these movements, which worked until now, no longer work
There's not any innovation, that's totally on the coach. We lose cos the team is based on X factor and individual brilliance, and is not enough. We actually need to work for victory. The excellent Nick Bishop has any analysis on Rugby Pass about the midfield, and the crap we see now. Let's play a fullback and a wing in the midfield, cos X factor, yeah that'll work. And that's just one area of muddled X factor thinking of many.
Until foster is gone, the ABs are in a tactics free fall.
For the last six years, New Zealand have increasingly reached towards ‘X-factor’, rather than players steeped in the technical and physical demands of play at numbers 10, 12 and 13
Interesting that he is one of the few press that agree with the majority opinion here, is not just foster, but late Hansen as well
In fairness a good number of people on this forum wanted rieko at 13. We don’t have a lot of other options TBH with the injuries to ALB and JG. I’m going to wait & see how the next 2 tests go.
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Joe Rocks, translated from French interview
Moreover, the attack game is not varied enough and faced with these increasingly better-organised defences, these movements, which worked until now, no longer work
There's not any innovation, that's totally on the coach. We lose cos the team is based on X factor and individual brilliance, and is not enough. We actually need to work for victory. The excellent Nick Bishop has any analysis on Rugby Pass about the midfield, and the crap we see now. Let's play a fullback and a wing in the midfield, cos X factor, yeah that'll work. And that's just one area of muddled X factor thinking of many.
Until foster is gone, the ABs are in a tactics free fall.
For the last six years, New Zealand have increasingly reached towards ‘X-factor’, rather than players steeped in the technical and physical demands of play at numbers 10, 12 and 13
Interesting that he is one of the few press that agree with the majority opinion here, is not just foster, but late Hansen as well
In fairness a good number of people on this forum wanted rieko at 13. We don’t have a lot of other options TBH with the injuries to ALB and JG. I’m going to wait & see how the next 2 tests go.
I wanted Jack for the must win third, but injuries got in the way. Rieko is deadly on the wing, so why not play him there?
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
I agree 100%. Just think that a lot of those problems run deeper than just the coaching staff and they need addressing with equal or greater priority. And I'd add that sacking the coaching staff without addressing those problems runs a real risk of making the situation actually worse.
Perhaps Hansen was on the money or not with his comments on NZR, but he raised some good points
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Joe Rocks, translated from French interview
Moreover, the attack game is not varied enough and faced with these increasingly better-organised defences, these movements, which worked until now, no longer work
There's not any innovation, that's totally on the coach. We lose cos the team is based on X factor and individual brilliance, and is not enough. We actually need to work for victory. The excellent Nick Bishop has any analysis on Rugby Pass about the midfield, and the crap we see now. Let's play a fullback and a wing in the midfield, cos X factor, yeah that'll work. And that's just one area of muddled X factor thinking of many.
Until foster is gone, the ABs are in a tactics free fall.
For the last six years, New Zealand have increasingly reached towards ‘X-factor’, rather than players steeped in the technical and physical demands of play at numbers 10, 12 and 13
Interesting that he is one of the few press that agree with the majority opinion here, is not just foster, but late Hansen as well
In fairness a good number of people on this forum wanted rieko at 13. We don’t have a lot of other options TBH with the injuries to ALB and JG. I’m going to wait & see how the next 2 tests go.
He's great on attack, but still rubbish in defence. System defence, and tackling/marking etc. His individual defence is awesome, but he's often not in the right place to use that.
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@Victor-Meldrew well given the issues showed signs in 2016 and really started bedding in circa 2017/2018, I think the fact none of the coaching team responded to this at the time is a big part of the problem...Maybe Fozzie is a good coach, but the ingrained issues that have been festering for near on 5 years now are now a major issue, but no one did anything about it, until now (Hansen and his team, that included Foster, and then Foster and his team)
It should be on them to identify issues in our game at the top, which will be there at Super and start working with Super coaches to fix these...this isnt on NZR, they are responsible for a completely separate pile of shit!
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Hansen not happy, you can put some of this on him, we stagnated from late in his time at the helm to now, plus he endorsed Fozzie so this tarnishes his rep too.
Was Tew forced out. I thought he decided to step down. And if so why
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
I agree 100%. Just think that a lot of those problems run deeper than just the coaching staff and they need addressing with equal or greater priority. And I'd add that sacking the coaching staff without addressing those problems runs a real risk of making the situation actually worse.
Perhaps Hansen was on the money or not with his comments on NZR, but he raised some good points
Maybe the problems stemmed from the coaching staff? That's the message I get from the recent changes. When experienced players and leaders are saying they are still behind the things that they are trying to implement but that the staff are incapable of implementation through the team then it is worth another crack.
That avenue of 'blame' is running out though and there will come a time when they have to decide if they are chasing something that can't be achieved with the cattle at hand and need to change tack. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
And I'd add that sacking the coaching staff without addressing those problems runs a real risk of making the situation actually worse.
I'm not sure how much worse it can get to be perfectly honest. That first half vs Ireland in test 3 is in the conversation for the worst half played by an All Black team in history.
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
And I'd add that sacking the coaching staff without addressing those problems runs a real risk of making the situation actually worse.
I'm not sure how much worse it can get to be perfectly honest. That first half vs Ireland in test 3 is in the conversation for the worst half played by an All Black team in history.
Two halves like this. Which is what I feared at ht. At least I'm looking forward with much more interest to the next 2 tests
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@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Joe Rocks, translated from French interview
Moreover, the attack game is not varied enough and faced with these increasingly better-organised defences, these movements, which worked until now, no longer work
There's not any innovation, that's totally on the coach. We lose cos the team is based on X factor and individual brilliance, and is not enough. We actually need to work for victory. The excellent Nick Bishop has any analysis on Rugby Pass about the midfield, and the crap we see now. Let's play a fullback and a wing in the midfield, cos X factor, yeah that'll work. And that's just one area of muddled X factor thinking of many.
Until foster is gone, the ABs are in a tactics free fall.
For the last six years, New Zealand have increasingly reached towards ‘X-factor’, rather than players steeped in the technical and physical demands of play at numbers 10, 12 and 13
Interesting that he is one of the few press that agree with the majority opinion here, is not just foster, but late Hansen as well
In fairness a good number of people on this forum wanted rieko at 13. We don’t have a lot of other options TBH with the injuries to ALB and JG. I’m going to wait & see how the next 2 tests go.
I wanted Jack for the must win third, but injuries got in the way. Rieko is deadly on the wing, so why not play him there?
because, like it or not, he's been a centre for 2 years, and is the best centre in the Country. That's why.
And i am not sure why this is the stick used to bash the team by so many (holy shit other areas of social media are awash with this). Our forwards are getting munted. Our 10 is playing like shit. As is our so-called linking 15, but everything will be fixed if we move RI back to 11 (where we have a plethora of options).
I am as bad as any. But AB losses really are just an excuse for us to bang out our preconceived ideas and prejudices.
I don't think Ian Foster is doing a good job as the head coach. But, i also believe our player development in NZ has stalled over the past few years. Maybe not helped by spending all the time playing ourselves, or the Aussies who have their own issues. The best players in the country are in the squad. But some of them are not good enough.
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@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Joe Rocks, translated from French interview
Moreover, the attack game is not varied enough and faced with these increasingly better-organised defences, these movements, which worked until now, no longer work
There's not any innovation, that's totally on the coach. We lose cos the team is based on X factor and individual brilliance, and is not enough. We actually need to work for victory. The excellent Nick Bishop has any analysis on Rugby Pass about the midfield, and the crap we see now. Let's play a fullback and a wing in the midfield, cos X factor, yeah that'll work. And that's just one area of muddled X factor thinking of many.
Until foster is gone, the ABs are in a tactics free fall.
For the last six years, New Zealand have increasingly reached towards ‘X-factor’, rather than players steeped in the technical and physical demands of play at numbers 10, 12 and 13
Interesting that he is one of the few press that agree with the majority opinion here, is not just foster, but late Hansen as well
In fairness a good number of people on this forum wanted rieko at 13. We don’t have a lot of other options TBH with the injuries to ALB and JG. I’m going to wait & see how the next 2 tests go.
I wanted Jack for the must win third, but injuries got in the way. Rieko is deadly on the wing, so why not play him there?
because, like it or not, he's been a centre for 2 years, and is the best centre in the Country. That's why.
And i am not sure why this is the stick used to bash the team by so many (holy shit other areas of social media are awash with this). Our forwards are getting munted. Our 10 is playing like shit. As is our so-called linking 15, but everything will be fixed if we move RI back to 11 (where we have a plethora of options).
I am as bad as any. But AB losses really are just an excuse for us to bang out our preconceived ideas and prejudices.
I don't think Ian Foster is doing a good job as the head coach. But, i also believe our player development in NZ has stalled over the past few years. Maybe not helped by spending all the time playing ourselves, or the Aussies who have their own issues. The best players in the country are in the squad. But some of them are not good enough.
Well put. On current form Jordie is part of the problem. I would hope that it is not because he has a chip about being kept at 15. Jordan would be better in a Ben Smith type role but I wonder if our attack would function better with multiple threats at first and second receiver and we need to go back to having two of BB/RM/DMac on for a period of the game to paint different pictures to the defending side and move the point of attack around.
Attck is frustrating at the moment but is also hard to judge without front foot ball.
By far our bigger concern is stopping teams stringing together multiple quick phases. That's what really kills us. -
