Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="597919" data-time="1468840240">
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<p>I think it's education of the subsequent generations (the kids) that spells the death knell of religions.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Not critique or mockery or any outsiders calling it all hogwash (actually think those tactics prove counterproductive to any argument involving human beliefs)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also think it's why the religious state leaders go out of their way to make sure the kids aren't exposed to proper education. I've lived and taught in countries where that very much is the case.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>THAT'S the the reason religion is waning in developed countries <u>and</u> standing in a developed country and pointing to less developed countries and saying "you should be more like us" is total folly </p>
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<p>Of course science-based education is key. So is being able to criticise bad ideas, because criticising bad ideas is the basis of science. Appeasing religion because we are scared of offending people is just slowing the whole process down.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="597984" data-time="1468881693">
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<p>Can we start a pool on where the next attack will be? Or maybe some sort of bingo type deal, first to tick off place, toll, method , Isis related yes/no etc etc.</p>
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<p>Germany</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/82240027/axe-attacker-in-german-train-rampage--reports'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/82240027/axe-attacker-in-german-train-rampage--reports</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="597984" data-time="1468881693">
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<p> Isis related yes/no etc etc.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Pretty broad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know ISIS have claimed Nice, but usually they wait for the public declaration of allegiance to come to light first - did that come through to Police or get sent on FB or something? I haven't been watching closely the last couple of days (trying to save a rugby club).</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597976" data-time="1468879647">
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<p>Think you misinterpreted what I said there. I didn't say everyone in Middle Eastern countries practise the 'murder all infidels' part (though many there do), I said they don't so much ignore all the bad stuff. Hence my example about a gay nightclub.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And yes, if something is explicitaly written in the Koran telling them what to do, they have to think about it. Whether it's "Great idea!" or "errrm I'll just pretend I didn't see that" they still had to think about it. It's a nasty piece of work.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Is it worth bringing up Chrstian Africa? That may need another thread. One that isn't dedicated to an attack by an Islamic fundamentalist. I don't disagree with anything you say there, in fact you are kind of making my point by bringing it up. Christianity is also a shitty religion - you are happy to call it out as shitty even though not all Chrstians are like that. But when I call out Islam I get "BUT NOT ALL MUSLIMS!!". They're both shitty, regardless of how people choose to follow them. And if people follow them to the letter, then they are the cause of that, because that is how they are meant to be followed. Even if not everybody follows them to the letter.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Further to this, the people that pick and choose which parts of a religion to follow <em>really </em>grate me. Either follow it or don't, stop fucking around pretending to be religious so you can claim to be holier then thou while not actually doing what your holy book says. Those are the people that need to stop validating these religions.</p>
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<p>but you see, it just isn't many at all that practice 'murder all infidels' - otherwise there would be a lot more dead infidels, after all there are over 400 million people in the middle east.</p>
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<p>i'm a very evidence-based person, and as such not religious at all, but i haven't said christianity is a shitty religion in that post. i'm just pointing out that shit things happen in christian countries too, when they're poor and uneducated. i can and do point out shit things happening in muslim countries, but to me it is pretty obvious what the cause is, and it ain't a book.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>if the books are the key then why didn't the peaceful teachings of jesus stop the crusades, why doesn't it stop what happens in africa - you could go to some of these places and have them all watch the sound of music every sunday and they'd still be killing each other. you say 'not everybody follows them literally'. but does anyone here know a single christian who follows the bible literally? does anyone here know a single muslim that follows the koran literally? it's not just 'not everybody', it is pretty much nobody. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597977" data-time="1468879825">
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<p>I live in a western country and have dual citizenship meaning I move between NZ and Europe. I don't want to go back to Europe right now. Why? Because Islamic fundamentalists are committing mass murder more and more regularly. So yes, it impacts my life.</p>
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<p>as mind-fuckingly awful as these events are, statistically you're still far, far more likely to die in a car accident there. despite a big reduction that's still 20,000 or so deaths per year in the EU. the old brexit will drop that a touch though i guess...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>have a look at the graphs etc here: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/terrorism-in-europe-at-historical-high/'>https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/terrorism-in-europe-at-historical-high/</a></p> -
Indeed. Terrorism is merely a minor irritant and we should just get used to it. It's also a great excuse to change Facebook profile!
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="598008" data-time="1468890012"><p>
Indeed. Terrorism is merely a minor irritant and we should just get used to it. It's also a great excuse to change Facebook profile!</p></blockquote>
This reminds me of my brother in law who works for an animal conservation charity. He's fixated with sharks and often spouts the bullshit statistics about how many attacks there are a year and his charity tried get YouTube to change shark attack to shark incident on their videos.<br>
I showed him the Eric Ritter video which starts off with the " sharks don't want to hurt people" bullshit but ends very very badly.<br><br>
Edited after searching his name , <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/bahamas/1391717/Yoga-theory-fails-to-save-scientist-from-shark-bite.html">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/bahamas/1391717/Yoga-theory-fails-to-save-scientist-from-shark-bite.html</a> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="598008" data-time="1468890012">
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<p>Indeed. Terrorism is merely a minor irritant and we should just get used to it. It's also a great excuse to change Facebook profile!</p>
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<p>deliberately obtuse. obviously it is different in that it is deliberate. obviously it should be addressed. obviously it is terrible.</p>
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<p>none of which has any bearing on my point that avoiding europe because of the likelihood of an event is not a logical decision and is not borne out by the statistics.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="598033" data-time="1468896832">
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<p>deliberately obtuse. obviously it is different in that it is deliberate. obviously it should be addressed. obviously it is terrible.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>none of which has any bearing on my point that avoiding europe because of the likelihood of an event is not a logical decision and is not borne out by the statistics.</p>
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<p>I don't agree that it's entirely illogical. In just the past few months we've seen bombs at airports in Brussels and Istanbul, massacres in Paris and Nice and now an axe attack in Germany. France currently has 10,000 soldiers and as many police patrolling the streets. What really scares the shit out of me is the thought of what things would be like if it wasn't for the billions and countless hours spent on counterterrorism and deradicalisation. While it might be the suitably progressive thing to tut tut that other religions are just as bad, the evidence in Europe in 2016 (not 1272) would tend to indicate otherwise.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="598039" data-time="1468898101">
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<p>I don't agree that it's entirely illogical. In just the past few months we've seen bombs at airports in Brussels and Istanbul, massacres in Paris and Nice and now an axe attack in Germany. France currently has 10,000 soldiers and as many police patrolling the streets. What really scares the shit out of me is the thought of what things would be like if it wasn't for the billions and countless hours spent on counterterrorism and deradicalisation. While it might be the suitably progressive thing to tut tut that other religions are just as bad, the evidence in Europe in 2016 (not 1272) would tend to indicate otherwise.</p>
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<p>looking purely at the numbers, it is illogical. you can live in fear, which is what these fluffybunnies want, or not. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>i am not saying any religion is good or bad, or better or worse, or equivalent - i simply don't care about any of them. what i am doing is using examples of christians doing awful shit (recently, in africa) to illustrate that the evidence indicates that poverty, lack of education etc are the root factors.</p>
<p>blaming islam in the way many do means alienating peaceful muslims - turning 'us' into whitey, and 'them' into muslims - but really 'us' ought to be all peaceful people and 'them' ought to be terrorists. i think that it is not only incorrect assignation of blame, it's also counter-productive in that it is likely to lead to more radicalisation - as well as just being a shit thing to do to innocent people, not to mention contributing to the election of the likes of the wonderful pauline hanson.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>note that i do not think any criticism of the koran or mohammed or allah, or in fact anything at all should be off limits. free speech is important. obviously the koran is ridiculous, obviously taking it literally is fucked. but the problem is not an old book, the problem is people being fucked enough to believe in an old book.</p> -
<p>I went to Egypt 2 weeks after Sept. 11.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The tour company we used had loads of Americans cancel thier trips, we had people telling us not to go, including my family back in NZ.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We did, got upgraded to their 'flag ship' Nile Cruiser and had an awesome time...it was an eye opener seeing MIlitary everywhere with guns, had a police escort going to Abu Simbel, but this was due to them only just re-opening the road to tour groups due to 'pirates' as opposed to being a response to the attacks (unlike at Gatwick where there were Brit cops with guns) but made the visit to Hatshepsut Temple even more eerie with the bulletholes in the temple un-repaired from the terror attack there in 1997.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="598073" data-time="1468909391">
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<p>looking purely at the numbers, it is illogical. you can live in fear, which is what these fluffybunnys want, or not. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>i am not saying any religion is good or bad, or better or worse, or equivalent - i simply don't care about any of them. what i am doing is using examples of christians doing awful shit (recently, in africa) to illustrate that the evidence indicates that poverty, lack of education etc are the root factors.</p>
<p>blaming islam in the way many do means alienating peaceful muslims - turning 'us' into whitey, and 'them' into muslims - but really 'us' ought to be all peaceful people and 'them' ought to be terrorists. i think that it is not only incorrect assignation of blame, it's also counter-productive in that it is likely to lead to more radicalisation - as well as just being a shit thing to do to innocent people, not to mention contributing to the election of the likes of the wonderful pauline hanson.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>note that i do not think any criticism of the koran or mohammed or allah, or in fact anything at all should be off limits. free speech is important. obviously the koran is ridiculous, obviously taking it literally is fucked. but the problem is not an old book, the problem is people being fucked enough to believe in an old book.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I don't think its living in fear so much as keeping a safe distance from a place that might be a terrorist target. Sure the odds of getting killed or maimed are low, but the poor buggers who were blown up or run over had the same odds as well.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If poverty, lack of education etc. are the root factors then how do you explain that many of these guys grow up in comfortable (sometimes well-off) homes in western countries with access to all the benefits a Western country can provide? Neither the guy in Orlando nor the one in Nice seemed to be particularly poor or lacking in opportunities.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="598075" data-time="1468910744">
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<p>I went to Egypt 2 weeks after Sept. 11.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The tour company we used had loads of Americans cancel thier trips, we had people telling us not to go, including my family back in NZ.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We did, got upgraded to their 'flag ship' Nile Cruiser and had an awesome time...it was an eye opener seeing MIlitary everywhere with guns, had a police escort going to Abu Simbel, but this was due to them only just re-opening the road to tour groups due to 'pirates' as opposed to being a response to the attacks (unlike at Gatwick where there were Brit cops with guns) but made the visit to Hatshepsut Temple even more eerie with the bulletholes in the temple un-repaired from the terror attack there in 1997.</p>
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<p>I went to Hurghada shortly after the Arab spring and during the week Bin Laden was killed. I have to say I quite enjoyed going through military checkpoints and seeing the machine guns. Perhaps it made me feel extra safe or something. The week spent there was one of the best holidays I've ever had. It was incredibly beautiful. Was really pissed off to leave.</p> -
<p><img src="https://scontent.fmel1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13716015_1312915342070241_2144108097547345764_n.png?oh=bfc2ad53696ea3b73fb3f6fe5cc2e892&oe=582F96A2" alt="13716015_1312915342070241_21441080975473"></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="597988" data-time="1468883199">
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<p>Pretty broad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know ISIS have claimed Nice, but usually they wait for the public declaration of allegiance to come to light first - did that come through to Police or get sent on FB or something? I haven't been watching closely the last couple of days (trying to save a rugby club).</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>No nothing but no one else claimed it. So they threw their hat in the ring. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="597970" data-time="1468876676">
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<p>Hey I'm not really in this argument but I did want to check the context of the quote by Gary.<br><br>
If you're going to state something as evidence make sure it is. I can't comment on what the Koran/Quran or Haddith or whatever Islam's book says. I'm not necessariky backing BSG or attacking Islam. I suppose I could google some context in the Quran if given specific references. It's really easy to look up "Luke 19:27".<br><br>
Also given my upbringing in an essentislly Christian county (i know many of "you guys" hate that reference but Western European culture is rooted in Christianity) and therefore a vague knowledge of how the Old and New Testaments work I have a starting point to go the google.<br><br>
So don't give the "you guys" line. I was only pointing out bullshit.</p>
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<p>Was not directing this at anyone in particular my point was more trying to understand how a person interprets a book full of fairy tales is a total waste of time. Regardless of the religion or the text chosen. Context is irrelevant when dealing with these people.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyway I am peaceing out of these friendly little chats we all have about these topics as it seems as pointless as the facebook profile thing. I had to check that I don't do the facebook. As long as we feed these trolls with media attention they won't go away. So I am becoming part of the solution and not paying them any attention.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Good luck if you find a solution feel free to drop me a PM. Until then I am going to focus on finding that holiday house in the south I have been talking about. </p> -
It's trendy to bag the whole "thoughts and prayers", change your profile pic, raise awareness etc. <br><br>
But given 99.9% of us can do sod all when anything happens, at very worst, thoughts and prayers at least make people feel like they've done something... or at the least feel like they give a damn... Or something. <br><br>
So far as I can tell, the first responders et al didn't stop for thoughts and prayers. I reckon it's a bit like sending a condolence card, what you write never feels sufficient (and probably never is), but it is something at the least. <br><br>
Yeah, there's probably showboating from some in the mix, but those people usually stand out for doing that across all aspects of their lives. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="598123" data-time="1468917961"><p>Was not directing this at anyone in particular my point was more trying to understand how a person interprets a book full of fairy tales is a total waste of time. Regardless of the religion or the text chosen. Context is irrelevant when dealing with these people.<br></p></blockquote>
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Context is always important. Especially when trying to understand a movement who may try to kill. I don't think that means trying to understand people to excuse extreme behaviour, but writing them off as irredeemable is unlikely to help change them... Or stop them. <br><br>
Besides, refs have it hard when interpreting the book of scrum laws.