NZ All Time XI
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
Parts of the series in the UAE and some of the scoring in Adelaide have reminded me of the 1980's when 2 and a half runs per over was often solid scoring in tests.
I was trying to find an old article on Crowe talking about facing Murali for the first time and having to 'force' himself to see it as an off spin delivery rather than a leggie after being bowled in the first innings, but found this one from Crowe on Warne early in Warne's career:
MC: ... I faced Warne early in his career, probably inside the first ten Tests he played. He had a massive legspinner but I quickly realised that he was very naïve with his other skills - the wrong 'un, the topspinner, the zooter or whatever he used to call it, but they just went straight, they didn't do anything.
So I said, Warne, you are just a straight bowler with a legspinner, so I'm going to pick your legspinner and smash it with a sweep, a pull or a cut. Because my idea was: I had a bat that was four inches wide and he spun the ball 12 inches so there is no point playing it with a vertical bat, so I used the length of my bat and thought that I had him covered. In fact, there was twice as much chance of me hitting him than him getting me.
SB: Did you say that to yourself or to him?
MC: Well, not in so many words, because I worked out in my mind after facing him in a tour match that this guy is good and I would have to apply some logic here. I'm not going to be able to play him with a four-inch bat, I have to play him with the length of the bat. So I said to myself repeatedly that he was a straight bowler with a legspinner and I would go into pull or cut mode, and I nailed him.Here is the interesting thing: Allan Border, who played against me a lot, refused to bowl him to me and brought on Merv Hughes. So all my theories and plans that I was itching to put into practice were gone because I never saw Warne. Finally, he had to bowl him to me at Eden Park. We were chasing 200 to win and I hit him for three boundaries in his first over. Border moved his field every single ball. He was in panic because he had to bowl Warne, Hughes had been played out. He bowled me a wrong 'un. Everyone was on the boundary on the leg side, three guys and a short leg. And then a slip, cover, point, mid-off. He bowled a wrong 'un and it bloody turned. I got an inside edge and Langer caught it.
And so then the first over that he bowls to me for about three weeks I take him for three fours and he gets me out with a straight ball - but it actually did turn a little bit. So that's how good he was going to become. It didn't matter how many guns I had in my armoury; he had many as well. If I had faced him in ten years' time he would've had plenty of success, because anyone who turns the ball that much and is as accurate as he became is going to be what he was: the greatest legspinner, if not the greatest bowler, in the history of the game
I was lucky that I got him young. In fact, after he got me out, he then bowled the Gatting ball. Then it all started.
(http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/775219/-batting-is-a-life-of-torment)
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
Not sure about that. Crowe faced some quality spinners as well in Qadir, Warne, Murali, Mushtaq Ahmed, Kumble etc.
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@virgil said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chester-draws said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
Both of them have their highest scores against Sri Lanka (without the 299 not out vs Sri Lanka, Crowe's average isn't that flash actually, and Kanes 242 not out certainly helps his average).
Crowe also played Zimbabwe, incidentally. In fact Kane has only batted two more innings than Martin against them.
Kane has played Bangladesh, but again only 6 innings.
Kane's average is good because he's a good player. There's not much padding it out with minnows (no more than anyone else).
Not many Batsmen averaged over 45 in the period Crowe played
Where as these days 50+ averages are common placeWhile I don't quite agree with you in terms of Crowes place in the echelon of greats ( although he's still probably third or fourth named in an all-time BC 11 ) I do agree with this point.
The bat technology and relative lack of top quality pace bowlers compared to the 80s and 90s mean averages are better now.
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@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@baron-silas-greenback said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
Not sure about that. Crowe faced some quality spinners as well in Qadir, Warne, Murali, Mushtaq Ahmed, Kumble etc.
Warne and Murali? That is the stretch that proves my point....
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@virgil said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chester-draws said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
Both of them have their highest scores against Sri Lanka (without the 299 not out vs Sri Lanka, Crowe's average isn't that flash actually, and Kanes 242 not out certainly helps his average).
Crowe also played Zimbabwe, incidentally. In fact Kane has only batted two more innings than Martin against them.
Kane has played Bangladesh, but again only 6 innings.
Kane's average is good because he's a good player. There's not much padding it out with minnows (no more than anyone else).
Not many Batsmen averaged over 45 in the period Crowe played
Where as these days 50+ averages are common placeSure. But that wasn't what I was disagreeing with. I was just saying that Kane's average is no more stacked by playing minnows than Martin's is.
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Kane was thrown into the deep end very young and had a slow start as well. His numbers in the last 5 years are absolutely astounding, no matter what era you are talking about.
Also, numbers alone don't tell the whole story. There are very few players that would score a ton in that last test under those circumstances, taking us from way behind to way ahead of the game. He's massively influential and has the ability to dominate under extreme pressure.
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@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
Sub-continent is a lot more easy to tour, especially without home town umpiring and flagrant ball tampering.
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@act-crusader said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe used a GM earlier on before the switch to DF.
I think it was the reverse, I picked up a Crowe GM bat around 95/96. Instantly improved my technique from the Ken Rutherford double scoop I had been using previously.
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@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
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@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
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@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
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@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
Paddles Bond and Boult
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@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
Paddles Bond and Boult
Bond didn't play enough test cricket for me. Boult and Hadlee strike me as the only two guys who would be a unanimous selection.
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@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
Paddles Bond and Boult
Bond didn't play enough test cricket for me. Boult and Hadlee strike me as the only two guys who would be a unanimous selection.
i saw enough.
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@donsteppa said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Jack Cowie could also be a bowling contender from stuff I’ve read in the past.
i have to have seen them play to put them in these sort of teams, but that's just my personal rule (like how Pinetree doesn't make my all time AB XV)
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@rotated I don't think Flem, Congdon, Jones or Rig were ever more than footnotes in a discussion.
On their limited records and from period reports Donnelly and Dempster have to be considered ahead of Taylor but eventually discarded because of the lack of evidence despite the strong suspicion that they would be at least his equal.
