Crusaders name/branding
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@Toddy said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
I wonder if they'll keep the crusading knights swinging swords as part of their entertainment.
It's better than a blue bearded pirate on a shitty boat with kids running behind it.
That said, wonder if the piratical theme offends people whose forebears were slaughtered by pirates? I mean, where do we stop
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@Stargazer said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
No you don't have to have any conversation and it should not have even been necessary for this to have been written.
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@Toddy said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
I wonder if they'll keep the crusading knights swinging swords as part of their entertainment.
Knights with swords on horses existed well before and after the crusades. Bascially, the only thing that you can link to the crusades is the cross on the shields and shirts. Leave them off, and there's no link at all.
It would be a complete overreaction to ban the knights on horses from the pregame entertainment.
Not that I think they should change anything at all.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Although I don't think they have to change their name, I think it's good to have that conversation at some point with the local community. It might actually turn out that the local community, including the muslim community, doesn't think a change is necessary at all. Do it in the off-season, away from the media. If their own fans feel strongly about changing the name (I doubt they do) and back a name change, then they could consider it.
What a lot of people on social media seem to forget is that the team's name is also a brand name. Changing the name has huge implications, including financial. Just think of having to take the logo and name off everything, changing their gear ....
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@Stargazer said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Rancid-Schnitzel Although I don't think they have to change their name, I think it's good to have that conversation at some point with the local community. It might actually turn out that the local community, including the muslim community, doesn't think a change is necessary at all. Do it in the off-season, away from the media. If their own fans feel strongly about changing the name (I doubt they do) and back a name change, then they could consider it.
What a lot of people on social media seem to forget is that the team's name is also a brand name. Changing the name has huge implications, including financial. Just think of having to take the logo and name off everything, changing their gear ....
There is no conversation to be had. This had zero to do with what happened and it's absolutely ridiculous to make any link whatsoever. If there a some Muslims that are offended by the name (and I question whether there actually are that many) that is a completely different issue, but just as ridiculous.
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I don't think it should be changed
The next phase in the argument against the name will be to link it to white supremacist groups. Crusader imagery is all over neo nazi sites and is also used constantly by ironic shit posters on the chans.
It's going to be very easy for the media to post memes that will get a negative reactionA lot of people are binary thinkers. Racists like something in one context, so therefore it's bad in every context.
I just hope no decision is made quickly. A quick decision will be more likely to change the name. A slower process will allow some nuance to creep in
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I don't want it changed because I am superstitious. The empire could crumble if they do!
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@Duluth said in Crusaders name/branding:
I split this off from the main thread about the shooting
... and with average good luck you will be using it to wrap the fish and chips by next Friday night!
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Thought it was quite over the top when I first read about this story unfolding but it was Quite interesting watching the Saders CEO on the news,this evening apparently it’s something as an administration they had been thinking about long before the trajic events of Friday ,can’t say I agree with it but you know what , if it brings a city together in terms standing with their Muslim brothers and Sisters and it brings people together it’s probably worth putting out there
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I’ll happily change my username to ACT Champions....
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@ACT-Crusader thats implying everyone else are the losers cos you are the champions, and losers dont get certificates!
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@taniwharugby said in Crusaders name/branding:
@ACT-Crusader thats implying everyone else are the losers cos you are the champions, and losers dont get certificates!
Well if the shoe fits 😀
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@Duluth said in Crusaders name/branding:
I just hope no decision is made quickly. A quick decision will be more likely to change the name. A slower process will allow some nuance to creep in
This. The more considered the decision is the better.
@Steven-Harris said in Crusaders name/branding:
Thought it was quite over the top when I first read about this story unfolding but it was Quite interesting watching the Saders CEO on the news,this evening apparently it’s something as an administration they had been thinking about long before the trajic events of Friday ,can’t say I agree with it but you know what , if it brings a city together in terms standing with their Muslim brothers and Sisters and it brings people together it’s probably worth putting out there
At least half of it will be thinking about what any viable alternative names are. @ACT-Crusader lobbying for Canterbury Champions should convince any non-Cantabs sitting on the fence to lobby for keeping the name.
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@Donsteppa said in Crusaders name/branding:
@Duluth said in Crusaders name/branding:
I just hope no decision is made quickly. A quick decision will be more likely to change the name. A slower process will allow some nuance to creep in
This. The more considered the decision is the better.
@Steven-Harris said in Crusaders name/branding:
Thought it was quite over the top when I first read about this story unfolding but it was Quite interesting watching the Saders CEO on the news,this evening apparently it’s something as an administration they had been thinking about long before the trajic events of Friday ,can’t say I agree with it but you know what , if it brings a city together in terms standing with their Muslim brothers and Sisters and it brings people together it’s probably worth putting out there
At least half of it will be thinking about what any viable alternative names are. @ACT-Crusader lobbying for Canterbury Champions should convince any non-Cantabs sitting on the fence to lobby for keeping the name.
Thats ACT-Corgi to you.
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@Steven-Harris said in Crusaders name/branding:
Thought it was quite over the top when I first read about this story unfolding but it was Quite interesting watching the Saders CEO on the news,this evening apparently it’s something as an administration they had been thinking about long before the trajic events of Friday ,can’t say I agree with it but you know what , if it brings a city together in terms standing with their Muslim brothers and Sisters and it brings people together it’s probably worth putting out there
One this is for sure, changing the name would not bring the city together, it would be a polarizing decision at best.
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@No-Quarter I think the key point is,it’s being driven from the organisation themselves including the players.
And it was also confirmed it was the players that decided to pull the pin on last nights game. -
@Donsteppa adding Colin Cooper in not a deal..!lol
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@Steven-Harris said in Crusaders name/branding:
@No-Quarter I think the key point is,it’s being driven from the organisation themselves including the players.
And it was also confirmed it was the players that decided to pull the pin on last nights game.The article only talks about anonymous social media users, and a mention of a post from Guy Williams 3 years ago. And of course the media decided to blow that up into a story to generate clicks/revenue (which is a vile thing to do). That is what the organisation is responding to.
Totally fine with the players not wanting to play last night.
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@jegga said in Crusaders name/branding:
I'm 100% behind a name change if its the Canterbury corgis and I get to see Read leading his team out with a couple of these on a leash.
Make it happen please, you know it makes sense.
No way. Those things are nasty little shits.
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There are much more important things to discuss but here is my 5 Cents.
My gut reaction 24 years ago when I first saw that the Canterbury-based Super franchise had decided to be "the Crusaders" was that they had chosen an unwise name. The Crusades were horrible wars of racist violence using religion as an excuse for barbarism. Jonathan Riley-Smith and Christopher Tyerman's books on these conflicts are excellent. As was the 1990s BBC TV series with Terry Jones.
The problem now is that fans are used to the name "the Crusaders" and are used to the Crusaders more often than not being champions. Many of the greatest Rugby players and coaches of the 21st Century have been part of the franchise. There is also a long tradition of sports teams using non-PC names eg. Redskins, Knights, Saracens, Vikings, Pirates, Raiders that are at the very least a little bit historically problematic.
My preference would be for The Crusaders to keep their name but change some of their branding. Ditch the guys charging around on horseback with swords. Show a bit more cultural and historical awareness and sensitivity in their marketing.
If there is to be a name change, how about The Pioneers? It would be a nod to Christchurch and the Canterbury region as a welcome home over the years to so many who came to New Zealand. It would be a nod as well to Kate Sheppard and the pioneering role of Christchurch Suffragettes in achieving votes for women for the first time anywhere in the world. It would pay homage to the New Zealand (Maori) Pioneer Battalion who served as part of the NZ Expeditionary Force in World War One. It would acknowledge Nelson's Ernest Rutherford and his pioneering role in splitting the atom. It would also be nod to the way the franchise has time and time again led the world in new Rugby strategy, systems and tactics.
I suspect most fans will still want their team to keep its name.
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Best thing would be for the Crusaders board to meet the Muslim leaders, after which a joint signed press release is issued in which the Muslim leaders note there is no link whatsoever between the sporting team and the tragedy and that they support keeping the name and are right behind the team as representatives of the people of the Crusaders catchment area.
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
There are much more important things to discuss but here is my 5 Cents.
My gut reaction 24 years ago when I first saw that the Canterbury-based Super franchise had decided to be "the Crusaders" was that they had chosen an unwise name. The Crusades were horrible wars of racist violence using religion as an excuse for barbarism. Jonathan Riley-Smith and Christopher Tyerman's books on these conflicts are excellent. As was the 1990s BBC TV series with Terry Jones.
The problem now is that fans are used to the name "the Crusaders" and are used to the Crusaders more often than not being champions. Many of the greatest Rugby players and coaches of the 21st Century have been part of the franchise. There is also a long tradition of sports teams using non-PC names eg. Redskins, Knights, Saracens, Vikings, Pirates, Raiders that are at the very least a little bit historically problematic.
My preference would be for The Crusaders to keep their name but change some of their branding. Ditch the guys charging around on horseback with swords. Show a bit more cultural and historical awareness and sensitivity in their marketing.
If there is to be a name change, how about The Pioneers? It would be a nod to Christchurch and the Canterbury region as a welcome home over the years to so many who came to New Zealand. It would be a nod as well to Kate Sheppard and the pioneering role of Christchurch Suffragettes in achieving votes for women for the first time anywhere in the world. It would pay homage to the New Zealand (Maori) Pioneer Battalion who served as part of the NZ Expeditionary Force in World War One. It would acknowledge Nelson's Ernest Rutherford and his pioneering role in splitting the atom. It would also be nod to the way the franchise has time and time again led the world in new Rugby strategy, systems and tactics.
I suspect most fans will still want their team to keep its name.
The last Crusade happened 800 bloody years ago. Not 8, not 80, 800. If anyone is offended by that they need their fucking head examined.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Crusaders name/branding:
@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
There are much more important things to discuss but here is my 5 Cents.
My gut reaction 24 years ago when I first saw that the Canterbury-based Super franchise had decided to be "the Crusaders" was that they had chosen an unwise name. The Crusades were horrible wars of racist violence using religion as an excuse for barbarism. Jonathan Riley-Smith and Christopher Tyerman's books on these conflicts are excellent. As was the 1990s BBC TV series with Terry Jones.
The problem now is that fans are used to the name "the Crusaders" and are used to the Crusaders more often than not being champions. Many of the greatest Rugby players and coaches of the 21st Century have been part of the franchise. There is also a long tradition of sports teams using non-PC names eg. Redskins, Knights, Saracens, Vikings, Pirates, Raiders that are at the very least a little bit historically problematic.
My preference would be for The Crusaders to keep their name but change some of their branding. Ditch the guys charging around on horseback with swords. Show a bit more cultural and historical awareness and sensitivity in their marketing.
If there is to be a name change, how about The Pioneers? It would be a nod to Christchurch and the Canterbury region as a welcome home over the years to so many who came to New Zealand. It would be a nod as well to Kate Sheppard and the pioneering role of Christchurch Suffragettes in achieving votes for women for the first time anywhere in the world. It would pay homage to the New Zealand (Maori) Pioneer Battalion who served as part of the NZ Expeditionary Force in World War One. It would acknowledge Nelson's Ernest Rutherford and his pioneering role in splitting the atom. It would also be nod to the way the franchise has time and time again led the world in new Rugby strategy, systems and tactics.
I suspect most fans will still want their team to keep its name.
The last Crusade happened 800 bloody years ago. Not 8, not 80, 800. If anyone is offended by that they need their fucking head examined.
Despite your hip use of expletives which gives added gravitas to your post, your logic is flawed. Doubt anyone will name their team “the SS”, even in 800 years time. If the crusaders name is offensive to the Muslim community, then maybe the name has to go. I’ll throw in a fuck for good measure.
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Yes, I was aware the Crusades happened several centuries ago. They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages.
St Patrick was even longer ago and probably English or two people, but that doesn't stop him being an important part of the Irish diaspora's social memory.
Not the biggest thing in the world by any means, but IMHO there are many other parts of European and New Zealand history that are much more deserving commemoration by a world-class sports team than the Crusades.
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@Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:
@Toddy said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
I wonder if they'll keep the crusading knights swinging swords as part of their entertainment.
Knights with swords on horses existed well before and after the crusades. Bascially, the only thing that you can link to the crusades is the cross on the shields and shirts. Leave them off, and there's no link at all.
It would be a complete overreaction to ban the knights on horses from the pregame entertainment.
Not that I think they should change anything at all.
Yeah, the link between the knights and Crusades would be tenuous at best if the cross was removed....
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Yes, I was aware the Crusades happened several centuries ago. They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages.
St Patrick was even longer ago and probably English or two people, but that doesn't stop him being an important part of the Irish diaspora's social memory.
Not the biggest thing in the world by any means, but IMHO there are many other parts of European and New Zealand history that are much more deserving commemoration by a world-class sports team than the Crusades.
That’s just remembering one side of history. Barbaric acts occurred on both sides and was just part of civilisation 800 years ago.
The Islamic empire of the time had plenty of blood on its hands, as did the prophet Mohammed.
The point is that it was eight centuries ago. Anyone still hanging onto that history is the problem, not the name. Nobody gets hurt when they are offended.
Anybody in the media campaigning for this name change is doing the terrorists work. It’s exactly the sort of stupid distraction annd division his trolling manifesto was trying to provoke.
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@Kirwan said in Crusaders name/branding:
@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Yes, I was aware the Crusades happened several centuries ago. They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages.
St Patrick was even longer ago and probably English or two people, but that doesn't stop him being an important part of the Irish diaspora's social memory.
Not the biggest thing in the world by any means, but IMHO there are many other parts of European and New Zealand history that are much more deserving commemoration by a world-class sports team than the Crusades.
That’s just remembering one side of history. Barbaric acts occurred on both sides and was just part of civilisation 800 years ago.
The Islamic empire of the time had plenty of blood on its hands, as did the prophet Mohammed.
The point is that it was eight centuries ago. Anyone still hanging onto that history is the problem, not the name. Nobody gets hurt when they are offended.
Anybody in the media campaigning for this name change is doing the terrorists work. It’s exactly the sort of stupid distraction annd division his trolling manifesto was trying to provoke.
True, but there's no SR team named after those other barbaric acts, is there?
And whether some groups are hanging on to history may be a problem, but it's a fact you can't just discount.
Alhtough I don't agree with a name change, I don't think it's "doing the terrorist's work". The name was always sensitive to some, also before last Friday.
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"They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages."
No. There is no profound pain for anything that didn't happen in a person's lifetime.
No one remembers any "pain" of history. All people (any race or religion) can empathise with the people of that time but nobody in 2019 is a victim of things done hundreds of years ago.
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I disagree. In Ireland, they will always remember the Irish Famine. Jewish families will always remember those killed in the Shoah. African Americans remember slavery and the civil rights struggle. Most western societies honour their war dead. Most emotional remembrance services I've ever seen was in Russia. Those memories involve pain.
I have no problems with any social memories unless those social memories become an excuse for hate and violence.
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@sparky well it is a great way to claim victimhood and then retribution, and then trot home to a life of modern day comfort, rights and non war peace but at the end of the day it's used as a narrative, (altitude training for the victim olympics)
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The Rhineland Massacres (probably the start of violent anti-Semitism in Europe) and the Jerusalem Massacre (all the women and children in the city killed) were heinous war crimes even by the standards of the day.
There was no single "Islamic Empire" that the medieval Crusaders attacked and murdered in but a series of states in the Levant like the Seljuq Empire, the Ayyubid Sultanate, the Danishments, the Fatimid Empire, the Nizari Islaili and even in some Crusades the Christian Kingdom of Cyprus and the Byzantine empire. It was always a poorly chosen name with no connection to NZ, just as calling a team "The Inquistion" would have been.
I'm sympathetic to your more general point, changing the name of the local Rugby heroes now and the backlash it would cause would look like a terrorist victory. On balance, I'm against a name change unless for security reasons.
