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My two ( slightly drunken, I’m celebrating ) cents.
In terms of what blokes have over girls physically I think the main one ( and I’m sure there is science to back me up ) is striking ability. Fairly sure the difference between the hardest punching guy vs the hardest punching girl is huge.
This should be taken into account in something as potentially dangerous as this.
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@kid-chocolate said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This is what she looked like before she transitioned.
For real.
As much as I’m 100% on the opposite side of this argument, these two pics do suggest whatever drugs they use do drastically reduce their physicality.
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First of all ... I have more than a few trans/transgender/transexual friends, lovely, smart and certainly different people omg . Trans discussions online always get emotive and messy but please, most trans people are not activists. Trust me they have bigger problems in their lives.
Anyway, a few factual things I saw reading this I feel I should mention -
- International meta-data studies I have seen put "transgender" people at around 0.3-0.5% of the total population so pretty low (it gets messy as some non-binary people are trans, and studies have taken different views on who is "trans" enough)
- I totally agree the percentage suffering significant gender dysphoria is lower ... for me I guess to the degree we're talking medical intervention i.e. cross-sex hormones or more. Some non-binary people suffer similar gender dysphoria too. It's complex.
- In Psychiatric terms gender dysphoria is no longer considered a mental health condition as of DSM-V (2013). It is still considered a medical condition due to the needs by some for physical interventions.
- I'd just like people to ponder on the thought that homosexuality was considered a mental health disorder until DSM-II was updated in the 1973 Seventh Edition. What the gay community suffered for acceptance, the trans community is going through now. 50 years later.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@kid-chocolate said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This is what she looked like before she transitioned.
For real.
As much as I’m 100% on the opposite side of this argument, these two pics do suggest whatever drugs they use do drastically reduce their physicality.
A typical transition for a MTF trans woman will involve high dose of estrogen plus what's called a T-Blocker (testosterone blocker). Androcur or spironolactone typically. Essentially the goal is to achieve stable female hormonal levels.
That process is normally for at least 3-4 years with an endocrinologist monitoring the hormone levels every 6 months, a lot more often at first. Lots of blood tests.
At this point, an orchiectomy can be considered which removes the need for a T-Blocker as ... you won't be making more testosterone for sure. Plus estrogen can be greatly reduced when the body is not fighting testosterone.
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@l_n_p re the last point, is it really?
I have zero issues with trans ppl. Zero. I have issues with the activists as I don’t believe:
- It should be free reign on men in woman’s toilets - because I think that’s open to be abused by genuinely sick, not trans, people.
- I don’t think trans men should participate in woman’s sports.
That’s nothing like what gay people went through. Nothing.
I literally know nobody who holds a diff point of view. And I’ll fight to the death that I’m not transphobic because of these views.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@kid-chocolate said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This is what she looked like before she transitioned.
For real.
As much as I’m 100% on the opposite side of this argument, these two pics do suggest whatever drugs they use do drastically reduce their physicality.
By that rational most modern day rugby players are on drugs because once they (rugby players) retire from first class sport they ‘deflate’ considerably
Not dissimilar to the before and after shots above
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p re the last point, is it really?
I have zero issues with trans ppl. Zero. I have issues with the activists as I don’t believe:
- It should be free reign on men in woman’s toilets - because I think that’s open to be abused by genuinely sick, not trans, people.
- I don’t think trans men should participate in woman’s sports.
That’s nothing like what gay people went through. Nothing.
I literally know nobody who holds a diff point of view. And I’ll fight to the death that I’m not transphobic because of these views.
Peace, I'd lose a fight to the death for sure and I never called you transphobic did I?
Although I'd use the term trans female for a number of reasons, I agree with you on both issues, or at least see them as very complex indeed ... no easy short-term resolutions. But again you raised them not me.
I guess my parallels on gay people is about the mental health stigmatization and how long it took for wider acceptance in society. Trans people are not new, the numbers prepared to come "out" until recently has been tiny though ...
Honestly toilets and access to sport are not the biggest issues for 98% of trans people who are not activists imho. Just the media whips them up to be.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@kid-chocolate said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This is what she looked like before she transitioned.
For real.
As much as I’m 100% on the opposite side of this argument, these two pics do suggest whatever drugs they use do drastically reduce their physicality.
Yes. He's got bigger tits in the first photo.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Peace, I'd lose a fight to the death for sure and I never called you transphobic did I?
No, and thats not what I'm saying - sorry if the bluntness of my posting suggested you did! It's well known that activists would call me transphobic because I hold those views.
Although I'd use the term trans female for a number of reasons, I agree with you on both issues, or at least see them as very complex indeed ... no easy short-term resolutions. But again you raised them not me.
Yeah, I did as those are certainly the most "anti trans" things I read about, where as I don't view them as that (and honestly, I think most trans people don't either). Thus, I disagree wth the parallel of gay people 50 years ago ...
I guess my parallels on gay people is about the mental health stigmatization and how long it took for wider acceptance in society. Trans people are not new, the numbers prepared to come "out" until recently has been tiny though ...
This is what I disagree with. I actually think that if trans activists got on with life and the eternally woke stopped trying to dictate utterly ridiculous terminology then everything would be much better. When you have continual things , and how much Rosie Duffield's comments were talked about the Labour Party conference, it's detrimental to the argument in my view. I mean look at this exchange
- STarmer on Marr - "Only woman have a cervix should not be said"
- Javed on Starmer - "Total denial of scientific facts ... and he wants to run the NHS"
- Freddy McConnel (activist transman who had a kid) - "I have a cervix, I am a man. Mr Javid, tell me otherwise to my face. I dare you".
Where do most trans people sit on this? Are they with Starmer? Or Javid? Or McConnel? Or do they wish this shit was out of the presss?
Honestly toilets and access to sport are not the biggest issues for 98% of trans people who are not activists imho. Just the media whips them up to be.
I actually don't think the media care that much about it. I think activists do their best to keep it in the media.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
In Psychiatric terms gender dysphoria is no longer considered a mental health condition as of DSM-V (2013).
I'm always bemused by this claim. Not a mental health condition. Appears in the bible for mental health conditions.
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Trans issues have absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality, and the fact they are all lumped together under one umbrella term does nothing to help gay people. To the point that new 'LGB' alliances are being set up as they want to distance themselves from some of the insanity of the trans activists.
I also don't see how gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, given the extremely high suicide rates of people affected as they cannot reconcile being in the wrong body. If that's not a mental illness then nothing is.
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Also, all of the nonsense @MajorRage is referring to in the Labour party about whether a man has a cervix is just the height of absurdity.
Biological sex across most of the animal kingdom, including humans, is determined based on the type of gamete each sex produces. Females produce large gametes (eggs), males produce small gametes (sperm). There is no third, fourth or fifth gamete that gets produced, it's eggs or sperm. 2 sexes, end of story.
Everything the trans activists talk about are secondary sex characteristics which vary among individuals; some are more prevalent in females and others are more prevalent in males. These also change dramatically when you go down the path of hormone treatments etc. None of them determine your sex.
A trans female is not a female because they are not the sex that produces large gametes. They are a trans female, the qualifier is important. Same as with a trans male.
None of this is particularly complicated. It feels like everyone is being gaslit into thinking it is more complicated than it is. I just shake my head at the public discourse around this, people have lost their fucking minds.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Where do most trans people sit on this? Are they with Starmer? Or Javid? Or McConnel? Or do they wish this shit was out of the presss?
I could be wrong but I think most thoughtful trans people in the UK consider healthcare access the major issue by far. NHS wait lists simply to be seen are now in years and rising (supposed to be 18 weeks). A gender dsyphoria diagnosis is needed before you can even get hormones whether MTF or FTM ... I believe there are more FTM now btw. Those quoting suicides or attempted suicides may want to start reading more on how suicide rates change as treatment progresses.
Those that can afford it go to private healthcare, which is typically pretty expensive as you can imagine. It's one reason it would be hard to know how many people have significant gender dysphoria as many (perhaps a majority now) simply avoid the NHS due to the waitlists.
Legally there are no blocks I am aware of for individual trans people to access toilets currently in the UK, and I suspect both main political parties may say a lot about "safe-spaces" while quietly leavinglegislation as-is in this area. It's a flashpoint for trans and gender conformist activists for sure, and easy to get column inches so it could be wheeled out pre-elections to generate cultural heat.
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@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
In Psychiatric terms gender dysphoria is no longer considered a mental health condition as of DSM-V (2013).
I'm always bemused by this claim. Not a mental health condition. Appears in the bible for mental health conditions.
Mainly I think because it requires physical treaments, and the insurance companies require a medical "tag" to hang them upon, also there are varying degrees of psychological gatekeeping in the process depending on country and age of trans people (and which there are different views upon! ... but regardless they do exist today).
The World Health Organization have also made similar changes in the latest ICD-11 (2018+) reflecting the same direction as DSM-V.
https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions/whoeurope-brief-transgender-health-in-the-context-of-icd-11 -
Hubbard is believed to be the first transgender winner of the award in the event’s 113-year history.The Queenstown athlete became the first openly transgender woman to compete at the Olympics when she contested the women’s 87+kg at the Tokyo Games this year.
The 43-year-old was eliminated from the event when she failed to make a successful lift in the snatch.
Her achievement was recognised with the sportswoman of the year award at University of Otago and OUSA Blues and Golds Awards on Tuesday.
In a short statement to the Otago Daily Times Hubbard said she was ‘‘grateful for all of the support and kindness received from the teaching staff and students at Otago University’’.
‘‘It is not possible for athletes to complete at the Olympic level without the encouragement and aroha of friends, family and supporters.
‘‘This award belongs to everyone who has been part of my Olympic journey.’’
Otago University Students’ Association president Michaela Waite-Harvey said the Blues awards aim to highlight Otago students excelling in their chosen sport.
‘‘We could think of no-one more worthy of sportswoman of the year than Laurel Hubbard who represented Otago and New Zealand incredibly well at this year’s Tokyo Olympics.’’
The other big winner was athlete Shay Veitch, who was named sportsman of the year.
He won the long jump-100m double at the national track and field championships in Hastings in March.
Aotearoa Maori men’s hockey representative Nick Parata was named Maori sportsperson of the year and the Otago University Tramping Club collected the sports club of the year title.
The awards were hosted in line with Covid-19 Alert Level 2 restrictions. Only winners were allowed to attend.
“It is a shame we couldn’t hold a traditional Blues and Golds Event given the restrictions and timeframes around Covid,’’ Waite-Harvey said.
‘‘However, we are happy we could provide a hybrid alternative and are very much hopeful we can do the whole nine yards next year.”
The original award of “Blues” (celebrating sporting success) has been around since 1908.
The Golds were introduced in 2002 to acknowledge excellence in arts and cultural success.
Among the 30-plus Blues recipients were Highlanders and Otago loose forward Sean Withy and Volts batsman Dale Phillips.
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2003 FORD FALCON UTE BA XR8
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@ploughboy what a massive "fuck you" to all of the sportswomen who slogged their guts out and actually won something.
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@kid-chocolate said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This is what she looked like before she transitioned.
For real.
Is it just me or does anyone else find it suss that a trained male fighting machine is now able to beat up on women with impunity?
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@mikethesnow said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@kid-chocolate said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This is what she looked like before she transitioned.
For real.
Is it just me or does anyone else find it suss that a trained male fighting machine is now able to beat up on women with impunity?
Transphobe
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@mikethesnow said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@kid-chocolate said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This is what she looked like before she transitioned.
For real.
Is it just me or does anyone else find it suss that a trained male fighting machine is now able to beat up on women with impunity?
Transphobe
Quite possibly by other people's definitions.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general