Coronavirus - New Zealand
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I think this is where there may be a big difference in society between NZ and UK and (imo) Europe. Human rights are enshrined in attitude and law.
I think anti-vax protestors who went out in lockdowns are idiots. I think people who ignore quarantine-at-home are irresponsible.
But if you start suppressing the right to protest (it's happening in the UK to prevent environmental activisism, being fought now), or mandating electronic tagging ... then I will be out on the streets too. Thankfully our legal system is independent and robust still and calls out our current government's excesses, Covid related and otherwise.
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
well, there is, hit a realistic vaccination target, and open the borders. If you don't open then, you are never opening.
If I were a benevolent dictator, I'd take that route. But I'm not (dammnit).
Given where we are, Covid's going to make its way through the community. I reckon the GOvt will try and spread that over a year or more with restrictions to keep load on the healthcare system down ... so that means at least another year or two of MIQ. And yeah, the risk equation fundamentally shifts with a vaccine ... but it ain't changing in the near future
i absolutely cannot believe the people of NZ are willing to put up with ANOTHER year or two of this.
My best mate is in Auckland and he lost his shit at me on Sunday because i made a joke. Being trapped in his house for fucking ages has finally done his head in.
The Fortress NZ mentality and MIQ are absolutely fine for a lot of people because they don't travel overseas either at all or much, so the impact on them is minimal to none, particularly since the Ta$man bubble meant most NZ travellers who wanted to, could get a trip in either direction (Australia is our main travel destination and where most of the overseas Kiwis are).
The economy is doing about as well as anyone could have expected 18 months ago and better than international comparators, so there's not much griping there either.
I agree that a 12 month lockdown is not remotely sustainable, but we're not looking at that at all - either case numbers will drop to an acceptable level or vaccinations will reach a rate that allows an exit from lockdown, and lockdown will end. If people don't like restrictions, then the mantra will continue to be "get vaccinated".
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@godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
well, there is, hit a realistic vaccination target, and open the borders. If you don't open then, you are never opening.
If I were a benevolent dictator, I'd take that route. But I'm not (dammnit).
Given where we are, Covid's going to make its way through the community. I reckon the GOvt will try and spread that over a year or more with restrictions to keep load on the healthcare system down ... so that means at least another year or two of MIQ. And yeah, the risk equation fundamentally shifts with a vaccine ... but it ain't changing in the near future
i absolutely cannot believe the people of NZ are willing to put up with ANOTHER year or two of this.
My best mate is in Auckland and he lost his shit at me on Sunday because i made a joke. Being trapped in his house for fucking ages has finally done his head in.
The Fortress NZ mentality and MIQ are absolutely fine for a lot of people because they don't travel overseas either at all or much, so the impact on them is minimal to none, particularly since the Ta$man bubble meant most NZ travellers who wanted to, could get a trip in either direction (Australia is our main travel destination and where most of the overseas Kiwis are).
The economy is doing about as well as anyone could have expected 18 months ago and better than international comparators, so there's not much griping there either.
I agree that a 12 month lockdown is not remotely sustainable, but we're not looking at that at all - either case numbers will drop to an acceptable level or vaccinations will reach a rate that allows an exit from lockdown, and lockdown will end. If people don't like restrictions, then the mantra will continue to be "get vaccinated".
lol righto
what's that acceptable level again? and when will the borders open again?
Also isn't your economy humming on Government money and property prices?
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@godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
well, there is, hit a realistic vaccination target, and open the borders. If you don't open then, you are never opening.
If I were a benevolent dictator, I'd take that route. But I'm not (dammnit).
Given where we are, Covid's going to make its way through the community. I reckon the GOvt will try and spread that over a year or more with restrictions to keep load on the healthcare system down ... so that means at least another year or two of MIQ. And yeah, the risk equation fundamentally shifts with a vaccine ... but it ain't changing in the near future
i absolutely cannot believe the people of NZ are willing to put up with ANOTHER year or two of this.
My best mate is in Auckland and he lost his shit at me on Sunday because i made a joke. Being trapped in his house for fucking ages has finally done his head in.
The Fortress NZ mentality and MIQ are absolutely fine for a lot of people because they don't travel overseas either at all or much, so the impact on them is minimal to none, particularly since the Ta$man bubble meant most NZ travellers who wanted to, could get a trip in either direction (Australia is our main travel destination and where most of the overseas Kiwis are).
The economy is doing about as well as anyone could have expected 18 months ago and better than international comparators, so there's not much griping there either.
I agree that a 12 month lockdown is not remotely sustainable, but we're not looking at that at all - either case numbers will drop to an acceptable level or vaccinations will reach a rate that allows an exit from lockdown, and lockdown will end. If people don't like restrictions, then the mantra will continue to be "get vaccinated".
This is the only out I see. Anyone who chooses not to, it's on them. For the rest of us, it's time to go back to work and try to live some form of normal life
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@canefan I have seen things about incentivising people to get vaccinated, how about employers do this by saying it is your choice to not get vaccinated; however, if you get sick from an illness that could have been vaccinated against (flu, covid, polio, small pox...) you dont get paid sick leave (obviously if you are vaccinated and still get sick from it, sick pay still kicks in)
Expect employment contracts would require some work....
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan I have seen things about incentivising people to get vaccinated, how about employers do this by saying it is your choice to not get vaccinated; however, if you get sick from an illness that could have been vaccinated against (flu, covid, polio, small pox...) you dont get paid sick leave (obviously if you are vaccinated and still get sick from it, sick pay still kicks in)
Expect employment contracts would require some work....
The lawyers are excited by this
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan I have seen things about incentivising people to get vaccinated, how about employers do this by saying it is your choice to not get vaccinated; however, if you get sick from an illness that could have been vaccinated against (flu, covid, polio, small pox...) you dont get paid sick leave (obviously if you are vaccinated and still get sick from it, sick pay still kicks in)
Expect employment contracts would require some work....
one of the other tourism companies up here came up with a great one
Covid will 100% come here next year. And because of your jobs, accept that 50-60% of you will get it. if you are jabbed, you will more than likely get the flu. If you don't get jabbed, then who knows?
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan I have seen things about incentivising people to get vaccinated, how about employers do this by saying it is your choice to not get vaccinated; however, if you get sick from an illness that could have been vaccinated against (flu, covid, polio, small pox...) you dont get paid sick leave (obviously if you are vaccinated and still get sick from it, sick pay still kicks in)
Expect employment contracts would require some work....
The lawyers are excited by this
a million downvotes
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
well, there is, hit a realistic vaccination target, and open the borders. If you don't open then, you are never opening.
If I were a benevolent dictator, I'd take that route. But I'm not (dammnit).
Given where we are, Covid's going to make its way through the community. I reckon the GOvt will try and spread that over a year or more with restrictions to keep load on the healthcare system down ... so that means at least another year or two of MIQ. And yeah, the risk equation fundamentally shifts with a vaccine ... but it ain't changing in the near future
i absolutely cannot believe the people of NZ are willing to put up with ANOTHER year or two of this.
My best mate is in Auckland and he lost his shit at me on Sunday because i made a joke. Being trapped in his house for fucking ages has finally done his head in.
I think people are becoming increasingly disgruntled. Whether it will be enough to force a seachange in strategy I'm not convinced. Cindy will make changes if their popularity dives in the polls
that is disgusting. It really fucking is. And we are so willing to brush it off as "just what politicians do" Kind? Open? Transparent? no, the same as everyone else with better branding.
Far too many people in NZ and Qld (the parallels are pretty scary) have convinced themselves that this will all go away if we just hang on long enough. It fucking won't. What we have done is bought some time to get as many people jabbed as possible. Hit the fucking rate, open up, and let the inevitable happen. It will any way, delaying it helps no one.
Oh people are getting increasingly disgruntled. I'm breaking my own rule even posting this (in case I bite someone's head off) aside from other things in life that are getting to me. All sorts of things just seem to build up in a lockdown, personal (friends, and family), business, supply. Delays being a big one there (3 months to get roof trusses FFS). 3 months for large foundation poles. It's just fucked.
Part of the problem is that my staff have been on paid leave for over 4 weeks - not everyone wants to change that. TBF most do (strangely). I would love that time off haven't had a break in 4 years. I could be driving around on my tractor or digger and not trying to keep them employed all day.
I'm with you guys though - can't keep doing lockdowns we have to live with covid. I will be Citizen "Wolfie" Smith leading the revolution otherwise.
The Tooting Popular Front is accepting memberships if we get locked down again. Labour have no show against us.
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@l_n_p said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I think this is where there may be a big difference in society between NZ and UK and (imo) Europe. Human rights are enshrined in attitude and law.
Definitely not in Australia. Hence how quickly we've become this dystopian state.
Even in the ACT where human rights are legislated, the CHO can wave them away with the powers assigned to unelected representatives. Our latest lockdown refers back to her judgement of a year ago (https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/1610154/COVID-19-Human-Rights-Act-summary-updated-version-27-July-2020.pdf), as if our understanding of the virus, the preparedness of the community as seen in rates of vaccinations are the same as they were back then. No one seems to care. It's baffling.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@l_n_p said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I think this is where there may be a big difference in society between NZ and UK and (imo) Europe. Human rights are enshrined in attitude and law.
Definitely not in Australia. Hence how quickly we've become this dystopian state.
Even in the ACT where human rights are legislated, the CHO can wave them away with the powers assigned to unelected representatives. Our latest lockdown refers back to her judgement of a year ago, as if our understanding of the virus, the preparedness of the community as seen in rates of vaccinations are the same as they were back then. No one seems to care. It's baffling.
I agreed with lockdown as a measure to protect the population early, give us time to prepare the ICUs and get vaxxing up and going. 18 months later, the governments in NZ and parts of Oz are using it to cover up their mismanagement of the last 12 months, when shit should have been done but wasn't
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Judith has finally jumped in where Seymour and Key kicked off. Predictably Hipkins fires back that they have already thought of all these things, but it wouldn't be responsible to implement them at such a fast pace.....
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@godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Facial recognition struggles with masks,
Jesus, don't get me started. I didn't spend all that money on a phone with facial recognition just so I have to put in my pin at every single place I go just so I can scan the QR code. It makes me look like even more of a tired old fluffybunny than I am.
Apple needs to either update the FR so it can tell who you are with a mask on or reintroduce fingerprint reading.
If Tim Cook is reading this, you're on a warning mate.
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@canefan you utter mother fucker Hipkins
shit like this is irresponsible as all fuck!!
"The biggest promise they are making at the moment is they are willing for Kiwis to get Covid for Christmas"
Well, Chris, are you waiting for the Easter Bunny to bring it? Or perhaps wheel it out for ANZAC day? Or is it only bad if it comes on a public Holiday?
As for those Qld/NZ parallels here is Qld's biggest cuck Steven Miles ""I don't think Queenslanders want to just give in this close to the end of the pandemic," Mr Miles said.
"I don't think Queenslanders will want to let COVID in for Christmas if we don't have it and New South Wales still does."
Be honest you fucking fluffybunnies
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan you utter mother fucker Hipkins
shit like this is irresponsible as all fuck!!
"The biggest promise they are making at the moment is they are willing for Kiwis to get Covid for Christmas"
Well, Chris, are you waiting for the Easter Bunny to bring it? Or perhaps wheel it out for ANZAC day? Or is it only bad if it comes on a public Holiday?
As for those Qld/NZ parallels here is Qld's biggest cuck Steven Miles ""I don't think Queenslanders want to just give in this close to the end of the pandemic," Mr Miles said.
"I don't think Queenslanders will want to let COVID in for Christmas if we don't have it and New South Wales still does."
Be honest you fucking fluffybunnies
That is perfectly in keeping with the messaging they've started to roll out over the last few weeks which taps into the unbridled fears of the most insular of Kiwis. That's why they planted the seed of thousands of deaths in the minds at the 1pm conference last Wednesday. In absence of a well-executed plan, they're preying on mental frailties instead. Lovely stuff.
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@smudge said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan you utter mother fucker Hipkins
shit like this is irresponsible as all fuck!!
"The biggest promise they are making at the moment is they are willing for Kiwis to get Covid for Christmas"
Well, Chris, are you waiting for the Easter Bunny to bring it? Or perhaps wheel it out for ANZAC day? Or is it only bad if it comes on a public Holiday?
As for those Qld/NZ parallels here is Qld's biggest cuck Steven Miles ""I don't think Queenslanders want to just give in this close to the end of the pandemic," Mr Miles said.
"I don't think Queenslanders will want to let COVID in for Christmas if we don't have it and New South Wales still does."
Be honest you fucking fluffybunnies
That is perfectly in keeping with the messaging they've started to roll out over the last few weeks which taps into the unbridled fears of the most insular of Kiwis. That's why they planted the seed of thousands of deaths in the minds at the 1pm conference last Wednesday. In absence of a well-executed plan, they're preying on mental frailties instead. Lovely stuff.
it's irresponsible at best, heartless at worst
what is the end game though? What are they hoping happens that allows their plan to be right?
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@stargazer said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@anonymous said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
45 new cases in Auckland. So much for the decreasing trend they were talking about yesterday.
Much better to look at the bigger picture:33 of the new cases are known household or close contacts of existing cases. Many have been isolating at home or in MIQ while infectious.
Of these, 26 are household contacts - 12 come from two households.
Many of these were expected, Bloomfield said.
Of the 12 unlinked cases, six already have potential links visible.Why is the bigger picture better? It seems to say those 26 people got it from household contacts, fine. But with a 4 day incubation period where did those household contacts get it, given they were supposed to be locked down for weeks already? Are you suggesting that people who are in the same bubble have been incubating the virus for 5 weeks? Or did someone contract it from someone outside the bubble? If so who is that and how many more people like that are there?
The answer is in the part that the PM and Bloomfield gloss over, the unlinked cases. They mention them in the pressers then hey presto, there's nothing more to see, ever. I haven't heard them talking about the potential implications of unlinked cases, i.e. that they caught it fro persons unknown, who have presumably given it to more people than just the ones in each unlinked case. Because otherwise they'd be linked.
Let's face it, they've been playing Canute and their fans and the media have been cheering them on while the waves are in the fucking sand dunes.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@l_n_p said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I think this is where there may be a big difference in society between NZ and UK and (imo) Europe. Human rights are enshrined in attitude and law.
Definitely not in Australia. Hence how quickly we've become this dystopian state.
Even in the ACT where human rights are legislated, the CHO can wave them away with the powers assigned to unelected representatives. Our latest lockdown refers back to her judgement of a year ago (https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/1610154/COVID-19-Human-Rights-Act-summary-updated-version-27-July-2020.pdf), as if our understanding of the virus, the preparedness of the community as seen in rates of vaccinations are the same as they were back then. No one seems to care. It's baffling.
UK executive gave itself emergency powers back in early 2020, but subject to bi-annual parliamentary review and voting I believe. Tbh a significant portion of the ruling Conservative party will oppose any measures being in place a moment longer than necessary, let alone opposition parties.
A Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) review of prosecutions brought under coronavirus regulations that reached open court found in February 2021 that 27% were incorrectly charged. Our cross-party Joint Committee on Human Rights has been pretty critical of regulations too - muddled, lack of appeal processes, over-zealous or inconsistent policing in the first place etc.
So lots of scrutiny here though it's mainly history now.