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@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@Frank are those swing states places where that industry is a big deal? or do you think swing state voters will think it's anti-business/growth/jobs etc?
Not sure.
I just know Biden's current attempts to deny he was against fracking earlier means banning fracking polls very badly in the swing states (particularly Pennsylvania)
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@Frank said in US Politics:
@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@Frank are those swing states places where that industry is a big deal? or do you think swing state voters will think it's anti-business/growth/jobs etc?
Not sure.
I just know Biden's current attempts to deny he was against fracking earlier means banning fracking polls very badly in the swing states (particularly Pennsylvania)
The fact that Democrats can't/won't moderate their woke liberal leanings to take the moderate middle, which is so obviously there for the taking, was always likely to resurface.
Biden fading in home straight.
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@pakman said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@Frank are those swing states places where that industry is a big deal? or do you think swing state voters will think it's anti-business/growth/jobs etc?
Not sure.
I just know Biden's current attempts to deny he was against fracking earlier means banning fracking polls very badly in the swing states (particularly Pennsylvania)
The fact that Democrats can't/won't moderate their woke liberal leanings to take the moderate middle, which is so obviously there for the taking, was always likely to resurface.
Biden fading in home straight.
How is fracking “woke” or “liberal”?
It’s a science/environment issue.
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@Frank are those swing states places where that industry is a big deal? or do you think swing state voters will think it's anti-business/growth/jobs etc?
Not sure.
I just know Biden's current attempts to deny he was against fracking earlier means banning fracking polls very badly in the swing states (particularly Pennsylvania)
The fact that Democrats can't/won't moderate their woke liberal leanings to take the moderate middle, which is so obviously there for the taking, was always likely to resurface.
Biden fading in home straight.
How is fracking “woke” or “liberal”?
It’s a science/environment issue.
It’s plain it’s not inherently woke or liberal, but anti-fracking is a widely held view by such types.
It’s not purely a science/environment issue: it’s also economic. Most of the glib climate change promises are not economically viable. For them to be so requires technology which currently doesn’t exist. And of course, without China playing ball it’s all rather futile.
At core, Biden is pushing ‘moral’ causes even if the costs fall on the less fortunate.
It’s very decent, but his apparent indifference to the economic impact on the electorate could be costly in the swing states.
I’d much rather socialise with Biden, but I think it’s going to go to the wire.
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@pakman said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@Frank are those swing states places where that industry is a big deal? or do you think swing state voters will think it's anti-business/growth/jobs etc?
Not sure.
I just know Biden's current attempts to deny he was against fracking earlier means banning fracking polls very badly in the swing states (particularly Pennsylvania)
The fact that Democrats can't/won't moderate their woke liberal leanings to take the moderate middle, which is so obviously there for the taking, was always likely to resurface.
Biden fading in home straight.
How is fracking “woke” or “liberal”?
It’s a science/environment issue.
It’s plain it’s not inherently woke or liberal, but anti-fracking is a widely held view by such types.
It’s not purely a science/environment issue: it’s also economic. Most of the glib climate change promises are not economically viable. For them to be so requires technology which currently doesn’t exist. And of course, without China playing ball it’s all rather futile.
At core, Biden is pushing ‘moral’ causes even if the costs fall on the less fortunate.
It’s very decent, but his apparent indifference to the economic impact on the electorate could be costly in the swing states.
I’d much rather socialise with Biden, but I think it’s going to go to the wire.
I get where you are coming from but fracking is a little different. You either frack or you don't. No technology changes required. Just like COVID, follow the science. I do get that there are economic implications, but everything has economic implications and not everything that makes money is inherently 'good'
If I follow your argument it is verging on claiming that something like vaccinating is 'woke'.I just wish people would stop assigning topics to 'groups' rather than assess them for what they are. By doing so cuts the sensible arguments off at the knees.
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@Frank are those swing states places where that industry is a big deal? or do you think swing state voters will think it's anti-business/growth/jobs etc?
Not sure.
I just know Biden's current attempts to deny he was against fracking earlier means banning fracking polls very badly in the swing states (particularly Pennsylvania)
The fact that Democrats can't/won't moderate their woke liberal leanings to take the moderate middle, which is so obviously there for the taking, was always likely to resurface.
Biden fading in home straight.
How is fracking “woke” or “liberal”?
It’s a science/environment issue.
It’s plain it’s not inherently woke or liberal, but anti-fracking is a widely held view by such types.
It’s not purely a science/environment issue: it’s also economic. Most of the glib climate change promises are not economically viable. For them to be so requires technology which currently doesn’t exist. And of course, without China playing ball it’s all rather futile.
At core, Biden is pushing ‘moral’ causes even if the costs fall on the less fortunate.
It’s very decent, but his apparent indifference to the economic impact on the electorate could be costly in the swing states.
I’d much rather socialise with Biden, but I think it’s going to go to the wire.
I get where you are coming from but fracking is a little different. You either frack or you don't. No technology changes required. Just like COVID, follow the science. I do get that there are economic implications, but everything has economic implications and not everything that makes money is inherently 'good'
If I follow your argument it is verging on claiming that something like vaccinating is 'woke'.I just wish people would stop assigning topics to 'groups' rather than assess them for what they are. By doing so cuts the sensible arguments off at the knees.
Obviously I’m very much summarising, but if Biden pitched his policies more towards moving in the right direction rather than making fairly strong shorter term commitments I think he’d claim the middle ground. If he then wins he can always up the ante.
There has been comment in UK that Joe has allowed an element of polarisation over Covid. He’s prioritising health over economy whereas Trump made a big play that Covid wasn’t as serious as some made out and the economy needed to be protected.
Trump really majored on jobs, but Joe seemed more in the camp of there being casualties in any war.
For some that may be a decisive factor in how they vote.
All that said, IMO it’s going to be tight.
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@pakman it may well be tight. If you have followed the posts where I am tracking the changes in polls you can see that Trump basically needs to own everything that is within the polling margins of error (and currently leaning Biden) PLUS he needs one more that the polls show as 5-10% in Bidens camp. It has to be a decent sized one as well. Somewhere like Michigan.
If Biden wins Florida it is all over for Trump.
So, yeah, the strange US system could see even more people across the country voting Biden than Clinton but still a loss -
@Crucial said in US Politics:
So, yeah, the strange US system could see even more people across the country voting Biden than Clinton but still a loss
The electoral college is really odd. You are actually voting for someone to vote for you effectively. I can see how it came about but shouldn't they have moved on by now?
There have been 5 presidents that won the college vote, but not the peoples (one draw). Is that democracy?
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
So, yeah, the strange US system could see even more people across the country voting Biden than Clinton but still a loss
The electoral college is really odd. You are actually voting for someone to vote for you effectively. I can see how it came about but shouldn't they have moved on by now?
There have been 5 presidents that won the college vote, but not the peoples (one draw). Is that democracy?
Some argue that it is a form of Proportional representation but I must look up how often it is adjusted for population. One vote per state would be an even worse set up.
When you are voting for one overall President you'd think that the fairest way is overall count. That would mean that the three branches cover the three representations.Good basic explanation here https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2020/oct/22/us-electoral-college-explained
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
Some argue that it is a form of Proportional representation but I must look up how often it is adjusted for population.
The most proportional representation would be to just use each vote for whichever candidate surely. They must be able to do that now.
I'm not sure how often they update it but I remember that a vote in Wyoming is worth 4 times as much as 1 in California. It's pretty screwed up and why it's not democratic. I'd be quite anoyed if people here effectively got to vote 4 times to my 1.
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
Some argue that it is a form of Proportional representation but I must look up how often it is adjusted for population.
The most proportional representation would be to just use each vote for whichever candidate surely. They must be able to do that now.
I'm not sure how often they update it but I remember that a vote in Wyoming is worth 4 times as much as 1 in California. It's pretty screwed up and why it's not democratic. I'd be quite anoyed if people here effectively got to vote 4 times to my 1.
I had it quite wrong. That link explains things. It is far far from proportional or representative.
The problem is that it is entrenched in the constitution. The article explains the possible workarounds but they offer their own problems. -
@Crucial You had it right the first time with "strange". Unfair or distorted would also work.
One other thing I remember is that it is population based, not eligble voters which throws it out a bit more.
Then throw in the number people that actually vote and you end up with wild discrepencies in representation. Yes if people don't vote it is their fault but it distorts the college system even more, you can end up with a very small percentage of people voting in one state getting large numbers of college votes compared to large percentage of voters getting fuck all in another.
It just isn't equitable. -
@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
So, yeah, the strange US system could see even more people across the country voting Biden than Clinton but still a loss
The electoral college is really odd. You are actually voting for someone to vote for you effectively. I can see how it came about but shouldn't they have moved on by now?
There have been 5 presidents that won the college vote, but not the peoples (one draw). Is that democracy?
I was amazed to read that democracy is not in the constitution.
"Nowhere is the word "democracy" mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the U.S. Constitution"
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
So, yeah, the strange US system could see even more people across the country voting Biden than Clinton but still a loss
The electoral college is really odd. You are actually voting for someone to vote for you effectively. I can see how it came about but shouldn't they have moved on by now?
There have been 5 presidents that won the college vote, but not the peoples (one draw). Is that democracy?
I was amazed to read that democracy is not in the constitution.
"Nowhere is the word "democracy" mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the U.S. Constitution"
Maybe because they were independent states, separate governments? Which is how they ended up with an antiquated electoral college.
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@pakman said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@Frank are those swing states places where that industry is a big deal? or do you think swing state voters will think it's anti-business/growth/jobs etc?
Not sure.
I just know Biden's current attempts to deny he was against fracking earlier means banning fracking polls very badly in the swing states (particularly Pennsylvania)
The fact that Democrats can't/won't moderate their woke liberal leanings to take the moderate middle, which is so obviously there for the taking, was always likely to resurface.
Biden fading in home straight.
How is fracking “woke” or “liberal”?
It’s a science/environment issue.
It’s plain it’s not inherently woke or liberal, but anti-fracking is a widely held view by such types.
It’s not purely a science/environment issue: it’s also economic. Most of the glib climate change promises are not economically viable. For them to be so requires technology which currently doesn’t exist. And of course, without China playing ball it’s all rather futile.
At core, Biden is pushing ‘moral’ causes even if the costs fall on the less fortunate.
It’s very decent, but his apparent indifference to the economic impact on the electorate could be costly in the swing states.
I’d much rather socialise with Biden, but I think it’s going to go to the wire.
"Most of the glib climate change promises are not economically viable."
Doing nothing is not economically viable.
"Most induced earthquakes are not directly caused by hydraulic fracturing (fracking). The recent increase in earthquakes in the central United States is primarily caused by disposal of waste fluids that are a byproduct of oil production."Kind of like saying most road fatalities are not directly caused by alcohol but by cars so why not drink and drive?
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@Snowy maybe. But from what i read the founding fathers were worried about democracy
Madison’s reading convinced him that direct democracies—such as the assembly in Athens, where 6,000 citizens were required for a quorum—unleashed populist passions that overcame the cool, deliberative reason prized above all by Enlightenment thinkers. “In all very numerous assemblies, of whatever characters composed, passion never fails to wrest the sceptre from reason,” he argued in The Federalist Papers, the essays he wrote (along with Alexander Hamilton and John Jay) to build support for the ratification of the Constitution. “Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.”
US Politics