The GOAT
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My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
real high. and the fact he was style ultra competitive in a young mans game for a long time too. Think how many rivals came and went?
11 World titles and first year on tour was 1989!!!!
GET OUTSIDE!!!!
If you like surfing docos, have a watch of Kissed By God, story of Andy Irons - he won the world title 3 years straight, 2002, 2003 & 2004 - Slater won in 2005 as the oldest winner ever, and Irons spiraled into a life of drugs and depression - what could have been!
This is a decent read also
Pretty much seen anything to do with surfing.
Loved the Netflix doco they had during lockdown last year. I can't for the life of me remember what it was called but they were really tight knit all those top end guys in the 90's
Blue Crush?
Yeah, it's pretty good...
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@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
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We're too humble as Kiwis. McCaw is right in the conversation for GOAT athlete. Absolutely amazing record as a player and as a captain including the pinnacle of back to back World Cups among countless other trophies. Mentally tougher or as tough as anyone to play any sport anywhere. Always led from the front and made any team he played for nigh on impossible to beat.
Honestly I doubt the guy is 100% human, he was absolutely relentless and was probably the most important factor in our incredible success over the period he was captain. We will never be as dominant as we were under his captaincy ever again, a fact we are starting to come to terms with now after a decade of absolute domination. We just don't have the resources to be that far ahead of the pack in the professional era lest we get another McCaw.
Yes he had fine players around him but you throw him in any team and they suddenly become 10x harder to beat.
I'm also still gutted Lomu was so unwell for most of his career. He was one of a kind.
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@No-Quarter said in The GOAT:
We're too humble as Kiwis. McCaw is right in the conversation for GOAT athlete. Absolutely amazing record as a player and as a captain including the pinnacle of back to back World Cups among countless other trophies. Mentally tougher or as tough as anyone to play any sport anywhere. Always led from the front and made any team is played for nigh on impossible to beat.
Honestly I doubt the guy is 100% human, he was absolutely relentless and was probably the most important factor in our incredible success over the period he was captain. We will never be as dominant as we were under his captaincy ever again, a fact we are starting to come to terms with now after a decade of absolute domination.
Yes he had fine players around him but you throw him in any team and they suddenly become 10x harder to beat.
I'm also still gutted Lomu was so unwell for most of his career. He was one of a kind.
MJ was lauded for winning a game with bad food poisoning (the so called flu game). None of the others we've talked about ever played and won a world Cup with a broken foot
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@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
the Grand Slam records are ridiculous. Those 3 guys have dominated the sport like no others. All sort of at the same time. Absolutely no one has stepped up in what is supposed to be a young mans game
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@No-Quarter it'll never fly. Rugby fans are far too divided. Irish fans will say O'Driscoll. English fans will say Jonny. Welsh fans will say some bloke from black and white TV. The saffers will say some bloke who wasn't allowed to play other countries. The Aussies won't even admit Richie was the best openside in Australasia during his career.
And then the cheat/offside/refs didn't watch him shit starts.
Rugby fans are weird. Football fans of all countries marvel at Messi and Ronaldo. Rugby fans would constantly come up with reasons why they are actually a bit shit, and not a patch on "insert some bloke from their country"
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
the Grand Slam records are ridiculous. Those 3 guys have dominated the sport like no others. All sort of at the same time. Absolutely no one has stepped up in what is supposed to be a young mans game
They are only emerging as these guys get closer to the end. The only guys I can think of that troubled the big 3 were Murray and Stan Wawrinka. Of the two I though Stanimal was a big threat when fit. He won 3 different slams. Murray was more often the bridesmaid than the bride, and generally didn't put up much of a fight in slam finals
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Wayne Gretzky
Babe Ruth@KiwiMurph and @Godder as someone who has watched the NHL avidly since the late 70's, I can't agree with Gretzky.
I'd take Mario Lemieux over Gretzky every time and IMHO, he was the best player I've ever seen.
Lemieux was a much more complete player than Gretzky was and for most of his career, didn't have the same quality of players around him. Hell, Mario even dropped the gloves on a number of occasions.
And Mario's stats on a per game basis top Wayne's in most of the key areas:
Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest career goals-per-game average (.823).Add to that he overcame Hodgkin's lymphoma and played whilst undergoing radiation therapy for this is just mind blowing!
And yeah, I have some experiance with this being diagnosed with lymphoma 1 year ago.
Yep
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There are only a handful of team sports that have true worldwide appeal, and the NFL isn't one of them.
If you are picking an all-time GOAT I'd be looking at an individual athlete.
Possibly a fair point which would rule Bradman and Phil the Power out unless you happen to have a look at their numbers as a random fan and judge them on that.
Darts is a worldwide game/sport/pastime/activity
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I'm in you can't compare sports for picking a GOAT camp.
It's also bloody hard to pick between eras. Look at Meads and Richie, no one thought anyone would compare to Meads yet along came Richie. I think Meads said that he couldn't believe there'd be anyone better than Brownlie and Nepia who were the people that his parent's generation talked up.
I've even heard people argue for Richie over Meads on pure number of tests.
Also, I've said may times I consider Richie a great AB but MJ a better player. I'd still take MJ for my 15.
I guess Pele v Messi and Ronaldo would be similar to Meads and Richie.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
the Grand Slam records are ridiculous. Those 3 guys have dominated the sport like no others. All sort of at the same time. Absolutely no one has stepped up in what is supposed to be a young mans game
They are only emerging as these guys get closer to the end. The only guys I can think of that troubled the big 3 were Murray and Stan Wawrinka. Of the two I though Stanimal was a big threat when fit. He won 3 different slams. Murray was more often the bridesmaid than the bride, and generally didn't put up much of a fight in slam finals
Yep. Stan had the game to beat all of them. And not just beat sometimes but absolutely flog. Unfortunately he never had anywhere near the mental fortitude of the Big 3. Murray seemed to always get to a semi or final then get his arse handed to him.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The GOAT:
@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
the Grand Slam records are ridiculous. Those 3 guys have dominated the sport like no others. All sort of at the same time. Absolutely no one has stepped up in what is supposed to be a young mans game
They are only emerging as these guys get closer to the end. The only guys I can think of that troubled the big 3 were Murray and Stan Wawrinka. Of the two I though Stanimal was a big threat when fit. He won 3 different slams. Murray was more often the bridesmaid than the bride, and generally didn't put up much of a fight in slam finals
Yep. Stan had the game to beat all of them. And not just beat sometimes but absolutely flog. Unfortunately he never had anywhere near the mental fortitude of the Big 3. Murray seemed to always get to a semi or final then get his arse handed to him.
I remember the aussie open he won, ground Djoker into the dust in 5 then beat Rafa in the final. He was a force in that year
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The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
You blaming Mahomes' play calling on his offensive line getting run over time and time again??? What about the scrambling runs he put in to get 1st downs when there were no passing options available? Brady sure as fuck wasn't making those.
I'm not saying Mahomes is better than Brady, I'm saying with the relative performances of the Bucs defensive line and the Chiefs offensive line, it just would not have mattered.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
You blaming Mahomes' play calling on his offensive line getting run over time and time again??? What about the scrambling runs he put in to get 1st downs when there were no passing options available? Brady sure as fuck wasn't making those.
I'm not saying Mahomes is better than Brady, I'm saying with the relative performances of the Bucs defensive line and the Chiefs offensive line, it just would not have mattered.
I'll say Mahomes is better QB than TB right now. Switch teams and the score is far worse. No taking away from TB because he was great. But let's not get crazy
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
You blaming Mahomes' play calling on his offensive line getting run over time and time again??? What about the scrambling runs he put in to get 1st downs when there were no passing options available? Brady sure as fuck wasn't making those.
I'm not saying Mahomes is better than Brady, I'm saying with the relative performances of the Bucs defensive line and the Chiefs offensive line, it just would not have mattered.
Brady didn't have to. Seen this?
Brady goes into the game with the tactic to play quick ball which takes the defensive line, to an extent, out of the game. Mahomes goes into it with his uber laid back confident "play what's in front of me" style, and Tampa had clearly worked it out. And what did Mahomes do when it was clear and he needed to change? Nothing.
@MajorRage Brady was given protection (therefore time) from his offensive line whereas Mahomes was always scrambling. Brady would have looked even worse as he isn't mobile.
See above graphic. Brady played to get rid of the ball ASAP. Mahomes didn't. It was a tactic. When you are 43, you'd have to be an idiot to think you could play a mobile game plan and and get away with it.
@voodoo said in The GOAT:
I'll say Mahomes is better QB than TB right now. Switch teams and the score is far worse. No taking away from TB because he was great. But let's not get crazyThis is Kirwan / Akira sort of myopia. Being better isn't just about being the better runner, better passer etc. It's also about being better tactically. Calling and executing the plays against what is in front of you. Brady nailed it. Mahomes melted down.
The superbowl was a genuine Mehrtens vs Carlos moment. Nobody argues Mahomes as a better box of tricks at the moment, but he didn't have a clue how to use them against a defence which had clearly worked his offence out.
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