All Blacks 2021
-
Here's your starter for ten, apparently NZR review had given a tick for fosters first year, if the herald are right. 🤮 Although they are holding off to extension yet
Reviews, by necessity, dig deeper than results and are why NZR has historically made decisions on the findings of the former rather than purely reacting to the latter and why in 2003, John Mitchell may still have been moved on as head coach even if the All Blacks had won the World Cup.
Reviews are the skewer that gets to the middle of the cake and when NZR pulled the tester out last year, they saw a clean blade confirming that all was well.
The players were motivated and connected, the culture was strong, inclusive and inspiring and the wider management team was respected by all and united.
Foster was appointed on a ticket of continuity. He was backed to bring a stable and yet driven environment where he could build on the foundation his predecessor Steve Hansen had built.
The review says he did exactly what he was put into the job to do and in nearly all previous instances, this has been enough to trigger negotiations about an extension."
Gregor Paul seems to think we should extend, after 50% and losing to Los Pumas!
"Foster may be standing right on it, wondering why a board that gave him the job hasn't doubled down and backed him to be in it for longer now that he's proven his capability.
He has good reason to ask what is the benefit to NZR of waiting and not pushing all their chips into the middle of the table now and telling Foster they are all in.
Pragmatism is the right approach for NZR, but it might be better achieved by making a commitment to Foster now rather than at a yet to be specified date."
-
@machpants hearty slaps on the back all round then.
Got to wonder where winning fits into the KPI's?
-
@gunner said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants hearty slaps on the back all round then.
Got to wonder where winning fits into the KPI's?
Well below inclusive culture, it seems
-
@gunner possibly low in the first season?
I mean a new Manager/CEO comes into a company, they expect him to shake some branches, make some changes that might disrupt things before the sun shines...
That said, we saw little branch shaking, maybe a leaf or 2 came loose, little disruption, just the continuity they speak of, which is part of the problem, the cracks were getting wider pre-2019 RWC, and we have continued in the same vein.
I hope if they do negotiate an extension prior to whatever our international season ends up being, that it has a very specific KPI around results, and if not met, the extension can be withdrawn.
We need to see some kind of change, some kind of plan, some kind of something this season to show we are moving forward.
-
I'm not sold on Foster at all. Doesn't seem a deep thinker on the game, nor fully in command of his players. The Pumas performance was appalling. Razor could do a much better job as AB Head Coach IMHO.
-
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
I'm not sold on Foster at all. Doesn't seem a deep thinker on the game, nor fully in command of his players. The Pumas performance was appalling. Razor could do a much better job as AB Head Coach IMHO.
You're preaching to the converted here, I don't think there are many Foster Fans around
-
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
Here's your starter for ten, apparently NZR review had given a tick for fosters first year, if the herald are right. 🤮 Although they are holding off to extension yet
Reviews, by necessity, dig deeper than results and are why NZR has historically made decisions on the findings of the former rather than purely reacting to the latter and why in 2003, John Mitchell may still have been moved on as head coach even if the All Blacks had won the World Cup.
Reviews are the skewer that gets to the middle of the cake and when NZR pulled the tester out last year, they saw a clean blade confirming that all was well.
The players were motivated and connected, the culture was strong, inclusive and inspiring and the wider management team was respected by all and united.
Foster was appointed on a ticket of continuity. He was backed to bring a stable and yet driven environment where he could build on the foundation his predecessor Steve Hansen had built.
The review says he did exactly what he was put into the job to do and in nearly all previous instances, this has been enough to trigger negotiations about an extension."
Gregor Paul seems to think we should extend, after 50% and losing to Los Pumas!
"Foster may be standing right on it, wondering why a board that gave him the job hasn't doubled down and backed him to be in it for longer now that he's proven his capability.
He has good reason to ask what is the benefit to NZR of waiting and not pushing all their chips into the middle of the table now and telling Foster they are all in.
Pragmatism is the right approach for NZR, but it might be better achieved by making a commitment to Foster now rather than at a yet to be specified date."
Well AB standards have dropped very low then.
Potentially 3 more years of shit under Foster then EXCELLENT -
Imagine what Eddie Jones would do to him.
-
The All Blacks will play 15 Tests in 2021 according to Foz.
-
Does anyone else find in this day and age it’s unacceptable to never have any females in the starting XV? I’ve looked back over the team sheets for 2020, and it really stands out. I’m hearing the NZRU are commissioning an independent review into the matter. Foster’s fate might hang on the findings.
-
@billy-tell said in All Blacks 2021:
Does anyone else find in this day and age it’s unacceptable to never have any females in the starting XV? I’ve looked back over the team sheets for 2020, and it really stands out. I’m hearing the NZRU are commissioning an independent review into the matter. Foster’s fate might hang on the findings.
Alex Hodgman has promised to change its name to Alex Hodgperson if they are ever picked for the All Blacks again.
-
Anyone with a herald subscription able to give a brief summary for this?
Revealed: The 'most likely reality' for All Blacks' 2021 season
/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/F4IXHIADU5QHBWCXX4UPU3BR7E.jpg)
All going to plan, the All Blacks could be playing international games again soon.
-
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Anyone with a herald subscription able to give a summary for this?
Revealed: The 'most likely reality' for All Blacks' 2021 season
All going to plan, the All Blacks could be playing international games again soon.
Talks about uncertainty in the schedule for half the article
- Italy keen to come to NZ in July
- Fiji also expected to make it. Possibly with a weakened side
- Predicts the RC will be in NZ and Aus (no home games for Arg or SA)
- Likely to have extra Bledisloe games
- Gregor Paul is confident the Nov series happens as planned
So nothing is 'revealed' as claimed in the title. Just some semi educated guesses by a journalist
-
I not sure who best coach is, but maintain we sitting here watching tv and writing on rugby forums probably wouldn't really be the best to know either. I am not convinced either way after last year, but what result would we rather have, Foster's or rennie's who many thought was also the answer. The reason I tend to support whoever is in charge maybe because I have been in the position everywhere from schoolboy , to club, JAB provincial reps through to actually provincial coach where I was on board that appointed the coaches. Like everything else almost everytime there were people who knew better than me, and could tell me why such and such shouldn't be coach. You know funnily enough like us, they were never in a position to know what was required, what each person bought to the interview, etc etc. As I say I not sure I Fozzie should be doing job, but I do say one thing, I think our standards may of dropped (though hard to tell last year) but one of things I have a suspicion is our skill level has dropped a bit in NZ, and that is not going to be fixed at ABs, but a lot lower than that. How many times over last year have we watched games where we are gobsmacked by the passig etc skills of our super players, one of our dtrengthys used to be we could set up a blindside attack with 3-4 players in 5m channel by touchline and beat defenders by quick passing etc. It's not happening.
-
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
I not sure who best coach is, but maintain we sitting here watching tv and writing on rugby forums probably wouldn't really be the best to know either. I am not convinced either way after last year, but what result would we rather have, Foster's or rennie's who many thought was also the answer. The reason I tend to support whoever is in charge maybe because I have been in the position everywhere from schoolboy , to club, JAB provincial reps through to actually provincial coach where I was on board that appointed the coaches. Like everything else almost everytime there were people who knew better than me, and could tell me why such and such shouldn't be coach. You know funnily enough like us, they were never in a position to know what was required, what each person bought to the interview, etc etc. As I say I not sure I Fozzie should be doing job, but I do say one thing, I think our standards may of dropped (though hard to tell last year) but one of things I have a suspicion is our skill level has dropped a bit in NZ, and that is not going to be fixed at ABs, but a lot lower than that. How many times over last year have we watched games where we are gobsmacked by the passig etc skills of our super players, one of our dtrengthys used to be we could set up a blindside attack with 3-4 players in 5m channel by touchline and beat defenders by quick passing etc. It's not happening.
Maybe, but the lack of worry about losing to Argentina from the Coaches and even worse, the press, is more of an issue. The constant pressure on coaches and players to perform and maintain the All Black legacy is why we have the record we do.
As soon as we stop being result orientated and start looking at fluffy shit like culture then we on the road to being as shit as Wales.
-
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
I not sure who best coach is, but maintain we sitting here watching tv and writing on rugby forums probably wouldn't really be the best to know either. I am not convinced either way after last year, but what result would we rather have, Foster's or rennie's who many thought was also the answer. The reason I tend to support whoever is in charge maybe because I have been in the position everywhere from schoolboy , to club, JAB provincial reps through to actually provincial coach where I was on board that appointed the coaches. Like everything else almost everytime there were people who knew better than me, and could tell me why such and such shouldn't be coach. You know funnily enough like us, they were never in a position to know what was required, what each person bought to the interview, etc etc. As I say I not sure I Fozzie should be doing job, but I do say one thing, I think our standards may of dropped (though hard to tell last year) but one of things I have a suspicion is our skill level has dropped a bit in NZ, and that is not going to be fixed at ABs, but a lot lower than that. How many times over last year have we watched games where we are gobsmacked by the passig etc skills of our super players, one of our dtrengthys used to be we could set up a blindside attack with 3-4 players in 5m channel by touchline and beat defenders by quick passing etc. It's not happening.
Maybe, but the lack of worry about losing to Argentina from the Coaches and even worse, the press, is more of an issue. The constant pressure on coaches and players to perform and maintain the All Black legacy is why we have the record we do.
As soon as we stop being result orientated and start looking at fluffy shit like culture then we on the road to being as shit as Wales.
You reckon they didn't worry about dropping the test against Argies? I would reckon the coaches would of been shitting themselves, as for the press, I not sure how coaches can get press to panic but maybe..... Make no mistake I thought it a worry when we lost to Argies, we weren't in right headspace. Look I not defending anyone, just saying that perhaps none of us is in a better position to know who is a good coach and it easy when our decisions aren't going to make a difference. I am 66 yo and don't think in last 30 years where the AB coach or Aus coach for that mattter have been really well supported. Not sure if you remember how many 'experts' knew that NZRU got it wrong reappointing Henry and co after 2007 WC, and how many reckoned that Wallabies were going to beat us with the 'superior' coach in Robbie Deans. Bet you don't hear many of them repeating it nowadays.
-
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
Not sure if you remember how many 'experts' knew that NZRU got it wrong reappointing Henry and co after 2007 WC, and how many reckoned that Wallabies were going to beat us with the 'superior' coach in Robbie Deans. Bet you don't hear many of them repeating it nowadays.
But in both cases:
- The first year gave a picture of what was to follow. Deans never did get any better. Henry continued to have a magnificent team (the loss that never happened was always the aberration).
- We still said wait until the second year's out before re-signing. As we are doing here.
It's one thing to be wrong before a coach is appointed. But after seeing a year of trash, being wrong after he has had a run is just plain idiotic.
At international level, and indeed Super Rugby, coaches who haven't got a winning team by the end of their second year never will (reliably) have one. Really good coaches turn things around pretty damned fast. Rennie won his first year with a team that Foster got eight years with. Robertson won early, while Blackadder never could despite the Crusader's faith that somehow it would get better with time.
If the ABs aren't looking a lot better by the end of 2021, then they never will under Foster.
Oh, and paragraphs help others to read what you write. That's why they invented them.
-
@chester-draws said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
Not sure if you remember how many 'experts' knew that NZRU got it wrong reappointing Henry and co after 2007 WC, and how many reckoned that Wallabies were going to beat us with the 'superior' coach in Robbie Deans. Bet you don't hear many of them repeating it nowadays.
But in both cases:
- The first year gave a picture of what was to follow. Deans never did get any better. Henry continued to have a magnificent team (the loss that never happened was always the aberration).
- We still said wait until the second year's out before re-signing. As we are doing here.
It's one thing to be wrong before a coach is appointed. But after seeing a year of trash, being wrong after he has had a run is just plain idiotic.
At international level, and indeed Super Rugby, coaches who haven't got a winning team by the end of their second year never will (reliably) have one. Really good coaches turn things around pretty damned fast. Rennie won his first year with a team that Foster got eight years with. Robertson won early, while Blackadder never could despite the Crusader's faith that somehow it would get better with time.
If the ABs aren't looking a lot better by the end of 2021, then they never will under Foster.
Very clearly laid out. Couldn't agree more.
-
results are one thing
at this stage i would like to see some emergence of what our competitive advantage is. How are we going to beat teams? Because 2020 it looked like hope. Hope that the same old game plan works with worse players.
II think i could stomach another year of ordinary results if the glimmer of the players and style that would win the 2023 RWC started to emerge. Rather than the same guys doing the same thing to an ordinary standard.
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
results are one thing
at this stage i would like to see some emergence of what our competitive advantage is. How are we going to beat teams? Because 2020 it looked like hope. Hope that the same old game plan works with worse players.
II think i could stomach another year of ordinary results if the glimmer of the players and style that would win the 2023 RWC started to emerge. Rather than the same guys doing the same thing to an ordinary standard.
A 2004 type year?
I'm just hoping form gets rewarded - the sort of form that makes a difference in Tests, not highlights for SR.
-
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
results are one thing
at this stage i would like to see some emergence of what our competitive advantage is. How are we going to beat teams? Because 2020 it looked like hope. Hope that the same old game plan works with worse players.
II think i could stomach another year of ordinary results if the glimmer of the players and style that would win the 2023 RWC started to emerge. Rather than the same guys doing the same thing to an ordinary standard.
A 2004 type year?
I'm just hoping form gets rewarded - the sort of form that makes a difference in Tests, not highlights for SR.
sort of? from memory 2004 was a real transition year, as the culture and everything needed an overhaul.
With regards to form, i am not sure what that is anymore. i don't think it's what looks awesome on the Super Rugby field, unless we find someway to unlock the field in a big test.
-
@chester-draws said in All Blacks 2021:
At international level, and indeed Super Rugby, coaches who haven't got a winning team by the end of their second year never will (reliably) have one.
I think never is a pretty strong statement there. England weren't exactly breaking down doors in 98/99
-
This post is deleted! -
@bones indeed, MacDonald's Blues weren't a winning team by the end of their second year either.
-
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones indeed, MacDonald's Blues weren't a winning team by the end of their second year either.
Better hope you haven't cursed the rest of their season! There's a solid blues mafia here who will be baying for blood. Or probably at least change your profile pic.
-
@kiwi_expat ? They were good in 2020.
-
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones indeed, MacDonald's Blues weren't a winning team by the end of their second year either.
2020 (last year) was Madonald's second year.
Of their final 11 games in 2020 Blues won 9.....
-
@kiwimurph meh. Couldn't even make it into double figures.
-
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones indeed, MacDonald's Blues weren't a winning team by the end of their second year either.
2020 (last year) was Madonald's second year.
Of their final 11 games in 2020 Blues won 9.....
Don’t let facts get in the way.
Not much else the Highlander fans have to look forward to this year
-
@kirwan is he a Highlanders fan?
-
Good coaches can have bad seasons, Joseph in 2013? His third year in charge and got the record number of losses, won it two years after that
-
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
I not sure who best coach is, but maintain we sitting here watching tv and writing on rugby forums probably wouldn't really be the best to know either. I am not convinced either way after last year, but what result would we rather have, Foster's or rennie's who many thought was also the answer. The reason I tend to support whoever is in charge maybe because I have been in the position everywhere from schoolboy , to club, JAB provincial reps through to actually provincial coach where I was on board that appointed the coaches. Like everything else almost everytime there were people who knew better than me, and could tell me why such and such shouldn't be coach. You know funnily enough like us, they were never in a position to know what was required, what each person bought to the interview, etc etc. As I say I not sure I Fozzie should be doing job, but I do say one thing, I think our standards may of dropped (though hard to tell last year) but one of things I have a suspicion is our skill level has dropped a bit in NZ, and that is not going to be fixed at ABs, but a lot lower than that. How many times over last year have we watched games where we are gobsmacked by the passig etc skills of our super players, one of our dtrengthys used to be we could set up a blindside attack with 3-4 players in 5m channel by touchline and beat defenders by quick passing etc. It's not happening.
Maybe, but the lack of worry about losing to Argentina from the Coaches and even worse, the press, is more of an issue. The constant pressure on coaches and players to perform and maintain the All Black legacy is why we have the record we do.
As soon as we stop being result orientated and start looking at fluffy shit like culture then we on the road to being as shit as Wales.
Am I allowed to like both posts?
-
Did anyone else watch the breakdown and feel that when Ardie says he is focusing on 8, it's about the same as when my wife says she's on a diet?
-
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
-
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
-
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
he's in a hell of a pickle. He's probably our second best 7 and 8, and arguably our second or third best 6. An amazing rugby player, but going to struggle to start while Cane is captain and Hos is around. Could pivot to being a phenomenal 'closer' (ugh, bench player) as his only route to the 23
-
@bones They did though
they finished the season with 10 wins from 14 games. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
he's in a hell of a pickle. He's probably our second best 7 and 8, and arguably our second or third best 6. An amazing rugby player, but going to struggle to start while Cane is captain and Hos is around. Could pivot to being a phenomenal 'closer' (ugh, bench player) as his only route to the 23
sounds like the perfect definition of a super sub,
i thought we were kind of getting past the insult of coming off the bench, that 16 isn;t just the second best hooker, might actually be the best lineout thrower and you want them on at the death, 22 isn't some generic utility player, they might be a sharp shooter to nail the drop goal or penalty to win it
I love to see ardie running at tiring front rowers...but not necessarily just smashing himself against and organised and fresh defense
-
@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
-
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
Players should do as they are told and what is best for the team.
Ardie is not a test match #8
Unless we develop a new plan that plays to his strengths and hides his weaknesses (@ACT-Crusader 's back to the future rodders plan)
Either pick the players, and mould tur game plan to suit their strengths, or pick.the plan, and then the best players to execute. From.the outside it often looks like we do a little of each.
