Blues v Highlanders
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@bones said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@tim said in Blues v Highlanders:
Holy fuck, that's far worse than anything which happened yesterday, what total incompetence!
I think the incompetence there is at least on a par with the Mounga forward pass (which may not have even been looked at if not for the challenge and then had the worst possible result for the chiefs). You can see how he came to the conclusion on the Akira pass, even if he got it wrong. There's no explanation for the Mounga pass.
The problem with Akira's pass is that it was so long and good that by the time Rieko caught it he was well in front of the point of release so it just doesn't "look" right to the eye, even if under the rules it was absolutely fine.
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@act-crusader Don’t disagree but Ardie is not an 8. 7 yes and possibly should have been a second five.
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@bovidae said in Blues v Highlanders:
Speaking of the officials, I am wondering if there is now some secret agreement between Sky and NZR not to show any replays of scrum penalties. Maybe it is at the whim of the OBU director, but the cynic in me thinks they don't want a replay to prove the ref was wrong.
I am referring to the 3 penalties given against Hohneck or Laulala towards the end of the game for collapsing the scrum. The official count was Laulala 1 - Hohneck 2. I could be wrong myself but I thought that Laulala should have been penalised the first time. Hohneck thought so too.
Didn't look that closely, but one against Nepo seemed to happen when Josh pulled back and Nepo overextended.
Is that allowed?
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@tim the place went absolutely nuts, as it should. Just a magnificent try rubbed out by a depth of TMO incompetence that was truly remarkable.
The video doesn't show quite how much work Rieko had to do either. He was covered, had to slow, change direction and then accelerate again to gas the chasers. Was a thing of beauty. He's not Conrad, but Conrad never had that pace and muscle.
Developing very nicely. Just need to see him throw some nice passes to set the outsides away now.
Also noticeable was how his gas lets him get away with non-perfect defensive alignemnt. He can leave a bit of room and still chase people down. Generally, the Blues tackling was excellent - lots of last ditch tackles made that (if we'd missed some) would have been seriously problematic.
Finally, could see A Smith not running into contact. There was a half gap at one stage he ran to and passed out of - not sure if he's deliberately avoiding it with a long season coming up, but I don't think he sniped all day.
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@junior said in Blues v Highlanders:
@bones said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@tim said in Blues v Highlanders:
Holy fuck, that's far worse than anything which happened yesterday, what total incompetence!
I think the incompetence there is at least on a par with the Mounga forward pass (which may not have even been looked at if not for the challenge and then had the worst possible result for the chiefs). You can see how he came to the conclusion on the Akira pass, even if he got it wrong. There's no explanation for the Mounga pass.
The problem with Akira's pass is that it was so long and good that by the time Rieko caught it he was well in front of the point of release so it just doesn't "look" right to the eye, even if under the rules it was absolutely fine.
How a TMO gets that interpretation so wrong must be looked at. Some of the rulings have been truly bizarre. As someone said, it's like an worked example of 'no forwrad pass' on the World Rugby law website.
ah, screw it, check about 1:20
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@nzzp said in Blues v Highlanders:
The video doesn't show quite how much work Rieko had to do either. He was covered, had to slow, change direction and then accelerate again to gas the chasers. Was a thing of beauty. He's not Conrad, but Conrad never had that pace and muscle.
Developing very nicely. Just need to see him throw some nice passes to set the outsides away now.He was pretty good for most, I think he really needs to work on his distribution awareness. He needs to think more about those who should be outside him, unlike when he was on the sung. Question is, say if he's there for ABs, who's the 12, not much showing yet in the season!
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It certainly is enjoyable watching the Blues these days. Didn't have to get out of second gear, was able to make early subs, and kept the rookie lock out there for the full 80.
Dalton is playing great at seven, that turnover for the Ioane try (I'm ignoring the TMO on that) was McCaw like. More of that please.
It beggers belief that a TMO can't see the pass being backwards out of the hand. Perhaps someone on Twitter should send the above video to NZRU...
Akira covering three backrow positions is interesting too. In that stupid year of the experimental laws he spent time at seven. Pretty huge backrow with Robinson there too.
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@toddy said in Blues v Highlanders:
The forward pass call was clearly wrong, but that turnover by Dalton should've been penalised. His hands were on the ground first then on ball. Could've almost been a yellow card too.
Like I said, McCaw-like
Sevens have to play close to the line. Besides, Hunt did a worse attempt on the try line and was only penalised, so that's the standard for this game.
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@dice said in Blues v Highlanders:
@kirwan I felt Dalton set the tone for us with his physicality on defense.
He was only on the field for 47 minutes and still topped the tackle count. Almost all those tackles were dominate.
Yeah, hope the head knock doesn't keep him out of the Crusaders game
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@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@booboo said in Blues v Highlanders:
Allow me to whinge about refereeing decisions given against the winning team.
Apparently that never happens.
And I know it's been said, but the Akira forward pass and the Sotutu vicious back charge really were crap. I get how @mariner4life Is losing his shit with rugby after crap like that.
Akira: went back out of his hands, and he was always in front of the ball indicating the ball travelled backwards relative to the player. How come us ignorant slobs on an internet forum know these rulings and the highly paid officials fucking don't?
I can see how they came up with the Sotutu ruling, I just disagree with it (ie., they got it wrong) and assert it was 100% unnecessary to even look at it.
Why have a TMO if they can't get simple decisions right?
There's whinging about whinging on the Saders v Chiefs thread about time taken to review. These were two examples where inordinate amounts of time were taken to review and get the wrong decision.
Its a lottery and they add no value. TMOs were meant to prevent howlers; now they create them.
Get rid of them.
Shirley you are not serious? We'd have to stop TV replays completely otherwise the internet would implode.
So you mean fans might get involved in caring about the game? That would be horrible. At least they'd know that it was a real person who made a real mistake in real time, rather than an idiot who can't understand the laws (and their application) with every video tool available. I'm happy to accept that given that we've tried the TMO and it is clearly not working.
If we must have it, the captain's challenge can respond to your concern, otherwise having the challenge is pointless. I'd give captain's one per half and that's the only situation in which the referee's ruling is challenged. If a TMO fucks up a captain's challenge, they get benched.
We have a citing commissioner who can deal wit foul play that gets missed in the game. Double or triple the bans for foul play and piss off with the 'good record' bullshit.
I would be all for less TMO intervention, but don't forget the TMO has evolved in multiple sports for a reason. TV technology improved, people at home saw the mistakes and spewed on social media, commentators made a big deal of them, coaches had dummy spits etc etc. It would need quite the cultural change for us to be comfortable with no TMO.
As for limiting the TMO to captains calls only, may work, may not. I don't have much faith in people so I still see plenty of dummy spits happening. People aren't going to sit back when their team has been screwed over by a bad ref call when the captain has used up their referral. It's easy to say "Tough titties, the team used their referral" but that won't stop the controversy. People will still find something to get pissed off about.
Benching TMOs for fucking up a call? Pretty harsh. Given a lot of decisions are opinion based we'd probably run out of suitably qualified refs. In some ways I see this response as our very own version of cancel culture. They made a mistake! Get rid of them!
Better yet, since we can all do the job of a match official way better than they can, why don't we have some sort of internet voting system. If a ref isn't sure, it gets sent out for the viewers to vote in real time. Nobody is one eyed (except people supporting teams from ChCh, but we could just ban them from voting) so voting will be fair, we will get consensus every time and the decisions will always be right because the majority is never wrong.
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@kirwan said in Blues v Highlanders:
@toddy said in Blues v Highlanders:
The forward pass call was clearly wrong, but that turnover by Dalton should've been penalised. His hands were on the ground first then on ball. Could've almost been a yellow card too.
Like I said, McCaw-like
Sevens have to play close to the line. Besides, Hunt did a worse attempt on the try line and was only penalised, so that's the standard for this game.
Later in the game, Ruru put his hands on the deck clearly, right in front of the ref, before grabbing a turnover when the Clan were hot on attack. All the Clan players stopped bceause it was so blatant, when they should have smashed the fuck out of him (or maybe just cleaned out the ruck properly).
Play the whistle.
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@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@booboo said in Blues v Highlanders:
Allow me to whinge about refereeing decisions given against the winning team.
Apparently that never happens.
And I know it's been said, but the Akira forward pass and the Sotutu vicious back charge really were crap. I get how @mariner4life Is losing his shit with rugby after crap like that.
Akira: went back out of his hands, and he was always in front of the ball indicating the ball travelled backwards relative to the player. How come us ignorant slobs on an internet forum know these rulings and the highly paid officials fucking don't?
I can see how they came up with the Sotutu ruling, I just disagree with it (ie., they got it wrong) and assert it was 100% unnecessary to even look at it.
Why have a TMO if they can't get simple decisions right?
There's whinging about whinging on the Saders v Chiefs thread about time taken to review. These were two examples where inordinate amounts of time were taken to review and get the wrong decision.
Its a lottery and they add no value. TMOs were meant to prevent howlers; now they create them.
Get rid of them.
Shirley you are not serious? We'd have to stop TV replays completely otherwise the internet would implode.
So you mean fans might get involved in caring about the game? That would be horrible. At least they'd know that it was a real person who made a real mistake in real time, rather than an idiot who can't understand the laws (and their application) with every video tool available. I'm happy to accept that given that we've tried the TMO and it is clearly not working.
If we must have it, the captain's challenge can respond to your concern, otherwise having the challenge is pointless. I'd give captain's one per half and that's the only situation in which the referee's ruling is challenged. If a TMO fucks up a captain's challenge, they get benched.
We have a citing commissioner who can deal wit foul play that gets missed in the game. Double or triple the bans for foul play and piss off with the 'good record' bullshit.
I would be all for less TMO intervention, but don't forget the TMO has evolved in multiple sports for a reason. TV technology improved, people at home saw the mistakes and spewed on social media, commentators made a big deal of them, coaches had dummy spits etc etc. It would need quite the cultural change for us to be comfortable with no TMO.
As for limiting the TMO to captains calls only, may work, may not. I don't have much faith in people so I still see plenty of dummy spits happening. People aren't going to sit back when their team has been screwed over by a bad ref call when the captain has used up their referral. It's easy to say "Tough titties, the team used their referral" but that won't stop the controversy. People will still find something to get pissed off about.
Benching TMOs for fucking up a call? Pretty harsh. Given a lot of decisions are opinion based we'd probably run out of suitably qualified refs. In some ways I see this response as our very own version of cancel culture. They made a mistake! Get rid of them!
Better yet, since we can all do the job of a match official way better than they can, why don't we have some sort of internet voting system. If a ref isn't sure, it gets sent out for the viewers to vote in real time. Nobody is one eyed (except people supporting teams from ChCh, but we could just ban them from voting) so voting will be fair, we will get consensus every time and the decisions will always be right because the majority is never wrong.
.A pattern of mistakes though.
Perhaps they need to be told to go away to focus on their work-ons... (and come back with learnings, so they can contra beaut...)
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@booboo said in Blues v Highlanders:
@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@booboo said in Blues v Highlanders:
Allow me to whinge about refereeing decisions given against the winning team.
Apparently that never happens.
And I know it's been said, but the Akira forward pass and the Sotutu vicious back charge really were crap. I get how @mariner4life Is losing his shit with rugby after crap like that.
Akira: went back out of his hands, and he was always in front of the ball indicating the ball travelled backwards relative to the player. How come us ignorant slobs on an internet forum know these rulings and the highly paid officials fucking don't?
I can see how they came up with the Sotutu ruling, I just disagree with it (ie., they got it wrong) and assert it was 100% unnecessary to even look at it.
Why have a TMO if they can't get simple decisions right?
There's whinging about whinging on the Saders v Chiefs thread about time taken to review. These were two examples where inordinate amounts of time were taken to review and get the wrong decision.
Its a lottery and they add no value. TMOs were meant to prevent howlers; now they create them.
Get rid of them.
Shirley you are not serious? We'd have to stop TV replays completely otherwise the internet would implode.
So you mean fans might get involved in caring about the game? That would be horrible. At least they'd know that it was a real person who made a real mistake in real time, rather than an idiot who can't understand the laws (and their application) with every video tool available. I'm happy to accept that given that we've tried the TMO and it is clearly not working.
If we must have it, the captain's challenge can respond to your concern, otherwise having the challenge is pointless. I'd give captain's one per half and that's the only situation in which the referee's ruling is challenged. If a TMO fucks up a captain's challenge, they get benched.
We have a citing commissioner who can deal wit foul play that gets missed in the game. Double or triple the bans for foul play and piss off with the 'good record' bullshit.
I would be all for less TMO intervention, but don't forget the TMO has evolved in multiple sports for a reason. TV technology improved, people at home saw the mistakes and spewed on social media, commentators made a big deal of them, coaches had dummy spits etc etc. It would need quite the cultural change for us to be comfortable with no TMO.
As for limiting the TMO to captains calls only, may work, may not. I don't have much faith in people so I still see plenty of dummy spits happening. People aren't going to sit back when their team has been screwed over by a bad ref call when the captain has used up their referral. It's easy to say "Tough titties, the team used their referral" but that won't stop the controversy. People will still find something to get pissed off about.
Benching TMOs for fucking up a call? Pretty harsh. Given a lot of decisions are opinion based we'd probably run out of suitably qualified refs. In some ways I see this response as our very own version of cancel culture. They made a mistake! Get rid of them!
Better yet, since we can all do the job of a match official way better than they can, why don't we have some sort of internet voting system. If a ref isn't sure, it gets sent out for the viewers to vote in real time. Nobody is one eyed (except people supporting teams from ChCh, but we could just ban them from voting) so voting will be fair, we will get consensus every time and the decisions will always be right because the majority is never wrong.
.A pattern of mistakes though.
Perhaps they need to be told to go away to focus on their work-ons... (and come back with learnings, so they can contra beaut...)
I am sure they are focusing on their work ons. We probably have the best refs available doing the job now, maybe there isn't the depth to bench refs for a period of time?
I mentioned this in the other thread about refs. I think a problem these refs are facing is that we are privy to their conversation while they are making decisions. I know from my work experience, having people listen in on the decision making process hinders things somewhat. We walk away from people and stop our recording devices when talking about how we are going to deal with things. That way we don't have to worry about what we say.
The refs are well aware they are being listened to and I reckon they would be conscious about what they say. We very rarely see them disagree and I don't think I have heard a ref ask another ref to clarify a law for them. This is not a healthy way to make good decisions. I quite like the way they do it in basketball and possibly other American sports. The refs have their wee debate in private, then they announce their reasoning once their decision is made. The process might take a bit more time I suppose but I reckon more refs would speak up if they disagree.
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@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@booboo said in Blues v Highlanders:
@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@crazy-horse said in Blues v Highlanders:
@gt12 said in Blues v Highlanders:
@booboo said in Blues v Highlanders:
Allow me to whinge about refereeing decisions given against the winning team.
Apparently that never happens.
And I know it's been said, but the Akira forward pass and the Sotutu vicious back charge really were crap. I get how @mariner4life Is losing his shit with rugby after crap like that.
Akira: went back out of his hands, and he was always in front of the ball indicating the ball travelled backwards relative to the player. How come us ignorant slobs on an internet forum know these rulings and the highly paid officials fucking don't?
I can see how they came up with the Sotutu ruling, I just disagree with it (ie., they got it wrong) and assert it was 100% unnecessary to even look at it.
Why have a TMO if they can't get simple decisions right?
There's whinging about whinging on the Saders v Chiefs thread about time taken to review. These were two examples where inordinate amounts of time were taken to review and get the wrong decision.
Its a lottery and they add no value. TMOs were meant to prevent howlers; now they create them.
Get rid of them.
Shirley you are not serious? We'd have to stop TV replays completely otherwise the internet would implode.
So you mean fans might get involved in caring about the game? That would be horrible. At least they'd know that it was a real person who made a real mistake in real time, rather than an idiot who can't understand the laws (and their application) with every video tool available. I'm happy to accept that given that we've tried the TMO and it is clearly not working.
If we must have it, the captain's challenge can respond to your concern, otherwise having the challenge is pointless. I'd give captain's one per half and that's the only situation in which the referee's ruling is challenged. If a TMO fucks up a captain's challenge, they get benched.
We have a citing commissioner who can deal wit foul play that gets missed in the game. Double or triple the bans for foul play and piss off with the 'good record' bullshit.
I would be all for less TMO intervention, but don't forget the TMO has evolved in multiple sports for a reason. TV technology improved, people at home saw the mistakes and spewed on social media, commentators made a big deal of them, coaches had dummy spits etc etc. It would need quite the cultural change for us to be comfortable with no TMO.
As for limiting the TMO to captains calls only, may work, may not. I don't have much faith in people so I still see plenty of dummy spits happening. People aren't going to sit back when their team has been screwed over by a bad ref call when the captain has used up their referral. It's easy to say "Tough titties, the team used their referral" but that won't stop the controversy. People will still find something to get pissed off about.
Benching TMOs for fucking up a call? Pretty harsh. Given a lot of decisions are opinion based we'd probably run out of suitably qualified refs. In some ways I see this response as our very own version of cancel culture. They made a mistake! Get rid of them!
Better yet, since we can all do the job of a match official way better than they can, why don't we have some sort of internet voting system. If a ref isn't sure, it gets sent out for the viewers to vote in real time. Nobody is one eyed (except people supporting teams from ChCh, but we could just ban them from voting) so voting will be fair, we will get consensus every time and the decisions will always be right because the majority is never wrong.
.A pattern of mistakes though.
Perhaps they need to be told to go away to focus on their work-ons... (and come back with learnings, so they can contra beaut...)
I am sure they are focusing on their work ons. We probably have the best refs available doing the job now, maybe there isn't the depth to bench refs for a period of time?
I mentioned this in the other thread about refs. I think a problem these refs are facing is that we are privy to their conversation while they are making decisions. I know from my work experience, having people listen in on the decision making process hinders things somewhat. We walk away from people and stop our recording devices when talking about how we are going to deal with things. That way we don't have to worry about what we say.
The refs are well aware they are being listened to and I reckon they would be conscious about what they say. We very rarely see them disagree and I don't think I have heard a ref ask another ref to clarify a law for them. This is not a healthy way to make good decisions. I quite like the way they do it in basketball and possibly other American sports. The refs have their wee debate in private, then they announce their reasoning once their decision is made. The process might take a bit more time I suppose but I reckon more refs would speak up if they disagree.
That's a really good point. I'd rather then be able to turn off their mikes, sort out the decision, and then announce their decision.
I don't agree they should be scrapped, but they should be making less mistakes than the ref sprinting around the field without the benefit (mostly) of a replay.
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Looks forward out of his hands to me. At the very least I don't think its as clear cut 'not forward' as some are making out
edit Im sure some expert somewhere can do the calculations to se eif it was forward out of the hands or not. It went a long way forward but this would ahve to be adjusted for speed of the passer
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i think im onboard with the no TMO idea, if there was no TMO we may all be annoyed we could see on the reply that it was one thing or the other...but eventually we would have to accept the on field refs can only see what they can see
