The State of the Game
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slight tangent back towards the good stuff in the game, just saw this
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@taniwharugby said in The State of the Game:
@bayimports said in The State of the Game:
@voodoo said in The State of the Game:
Home-town calls or are we southerners just a bunch of dirty bastards?
that is interesting, or does that say more about the consistency of application of the laws applied by refs from the southern hemisphere versus their northern hemsiphere brothers when playing here?
I'd say that is a big part, and it then highlights the issue of rugby rules in that there is such a varying degree of application/interpretation between NH/SH.
I wonder what the card rate in NH club rugby is like? Given the NH teams are against the 20 min RC, what exactly is thier reasoning? Do they have more RCs for filth and therefore feel RC means bye bye?
The main argument against 20 minute cards is that it lessens the penalty for serious foul play. That it will mean people might be more willing to risk tackling like Valentini yesterday, because they know their team won't be punished as badly if they're only short for 20 mins as opposed to, say, 60.
The argument that it should be the individual and not the team that gets punished is pure nonsense IMO. A team has a responsibility to teach their players to tackle safely.
Having said that I totally get the issue that a red can be either a very big or a very small punishment depending on whether it happens in the 5th or the 75th minute, and the 20 minute rule would go a long way to addressing that.
So I can see both sides. I'm undecided.
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@gibbon-rib I've always been in favour of somethign other than a straight out RC.
It has too much of an impact on the game.
As a fan, who pays to watch Rugby, if I see a RC in the opening 10-15, it pisses me off...if it was pure filth (Heaslip knee to McCaw) then I blame that fluffybunny, if its a debatable head contact or in the air contact, no way should it ruin the entire game and the blame sits with WR.
I would be less concerned if the RC was for filth, and a 20 min Orange Card for dangerous stuff.
I honestly dont think at this level of rugby, a player will go out and be reckless just because it will affect things less, they leave the field, end of thier day, or weeks in fact.
Maybe a financial burden on them too would be even more incentive, but I think being sent off and sitting on the sidelines for weeks is enough.
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@kiwiwomble said in The State of the Game:
slight tangent back towards the good stuff in the game, just saw this
That is just so good!!!
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@gibbon-rib My problem is this:
What happens if the RC is later rescinded as the judiciary thinks the ref was incorrect, and it was only worthy of a YC? An apology doesn't cut it if there is no accountability for the officials and the decision had an effect on the result.
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@taniwharugby said in The State of the Game:
I honestly dont think at this level of rugby, a player will go out and be reckless just because it will affect things less, they leave the field, end of thier day, or weeks in fact.
Maybe a financial burden on them too would be even more incentive, but I think being sent off and sitting on the sidelines for weeks is enough.
In the heat of a game when he's about to launch into a tackle I don't think a player is considering the punishment (red card / suspension / fines), it's more about teaching good habits - how much of a focus a team and individual put on their tackle technique in training (keeping low as opposed to trying to dominate) and general discipline.
I totally get what you're saying about a game being ruined by an early red. Although these days it seems that pretty much all red cards are given to Wales' opponents, and playing 15v14 makes it a more even game rather than spoiling it.
@bovidae said in The State of the Game:
@gibbon-rib My problem is this:
What happens if the RC is later rescinded as the judiciary thinks the ref was incorrect, and it was only worthy of a YC? An apology doesn't cut it if there is no accountability for the officials and the decision had an effect on the result.
And this is a really good point too.
I think a 20 minute orange for things like a reckless tackle and a red for filth could be a good compromise. But the downside of that is that it will introduce another level of complexity into the refereeing protocols, and people seem to struggle with that even as it is today.
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The easier you make it for refs to hand out cards, the more likely they will do so. Then you'll be left with arguments about refs ruining games (more than they already are) and that the card used was wrong and should've been another.
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@antipodean said in The State of the Game:
The easier you make it for refs to hand out cards, the more likely they will do so. Then you'll be left with arguments about refs ruining games (more than they already are) and that the card used was wrong and should've been another.
I'd far rather have a 0/10/20 min suspension discussion than a 'red or not' suspension
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@taniwharugby said in The State of the Game:
@gibbon-rib I've always been in favour of somethign other than a straight out RC.
It has too much of an impact on the game.
As a fan, who pays to watch Rugby, if I see a RC in the opening 10-15, it pisses me off...if it was pure filth (Heaslip knee to McCaw) then I blame that fluffybunny, if its a debatable head contact or in the air contact, no way should it ruin the entire game and the blame sits with WR.
I would be less concerned if the RC was for filth, and a 20 min Orange Card for dangerous stuff.
I honestly dont think at this level of rugby, a player will go out and be reckless just because it will affect things less, they leave the field, end of thier day, or weeks in fact.
Maybe a financial burden on them too would be even more incentive, but I think being sent off and sitting on the sidelines for weeks is enough.
Somebody once suggested a time penalty (40 or 20 minutes?) and that player cannot return. Sounds feasible to me.
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@voodoo I know this is not the point, but the tweet is wrong as far as it reales to South Africa, we only had two yellows (Nche v Wales and Kolisi vs England).
Cards are relatively rare so rather than looking at them statistically, it is better to go through them individually as there just are not enough data points to draw statistical conclusions.
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@antipodean said in The State of the Game:
The easier you make it for refs to hand out cards, the more likely they will do so. Then you'll be left with arguments about refs ruining games (more than they already are) and that the card used was wrong and should've been another.
and what haven't we argued about?
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@sidbarret said in The State of the Game:
@voodoo I know this is not the point, but the tweet is wrong as far as it reales to South Africa, we only had two yellows (Nche v Wales and Kolisi vs England).
Cards are relatively rare so rather than looking at them statistically, it is better to go through them individually as there just are not enough data points to draw statistical conclusions.
That's fine for the cards actually given, but doesn't help the comparison when you think about the ones that weren't. Ireland could easily have had 2 against us alone yet have zero over the whole series 🤷♂️
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@voodoo yeah, take our game against England - I think it was their 18th penalty that finally lead to a card, while we lost a man for our 5 or 6th against wales(and in both cases they were given repeated rather than cynical offences).
My issue with just looking at the cards and expecting the ledgers to balance is silly. The evidence presented in the tweet doesn't support the conclusion that the writer is trying to infer.
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@sidbarret the repeated infringement yellows are tough to compare and also generally fuck me off to no end.
On balance, I prefer less match to match consistency to give refs discretion to punish truly cynical play and give themselves some leeway when they’ve made a string of marginal calls.
So I’ll take the England situation if a captain can tell the ref: don’t compound the last three mistakes. You’ll thank yourself at the review. And for the ref to be empowered to acknowledge it.
