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@No-Quarter Fairly new, about 14 years, but not known for bringing facts into the discussion.
You have valid points in all cases, no denying it. Common ground?
Common ground though, like common sense, is not really that common, particularly in this thread
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@No-Quarter said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Catogrande you must be new to the Fern, bringing facts and stats to the debate... sheesh.
Anyway I would counter some of that with:
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Indonesia is a fucking basket case of a country, with massive restrictions on the media and freedom of speech - particularly when it comes to West Papua. Not sure I'd be holding them up as a poster child for Islam.
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India only has a large Muslim population because India's population is fucking massive. They're 80% Hinduism so I'd probably scratch them off the list as parts of Sharia Law are unlikely to be applied widespread given they are not Muslim majority.
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When four atheist bloggers are hacked to death in Bangladesh and the governments response is not to denounce the attacks, but rather tell bloggers to use more restraint in their exercise of free speech, I'm not sure we can say they don't have some pretty serious human rights issues inspired by Islam.
Look, we're getting pretty wide in our discussion now and I wouldn't claim for a second that all of the problems in these countries are down to Islam alone, it's more complex then that with various socio-economic factors at play, but it does play a significant role in some of the worst practices you see.
I think we largely agree with each other, and unfortunately neither of us have really come up with any tangible solutions to the problem - my only one being waging a "war of words" via freedom of speech as we have with Christianity. But as @gollum says you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't be a politician that comes up with the answer...
Agree with so much of what you've said NQ - good discussion - ta
Must raise a point from my observations in Asia regarding your comment about freedom of speech and media regulations in Indonesia though. That phenomonen isn't so much a symptom of Islam but rather the SOP for 99% of Asian countries. It's my experience that the governence of all the SEA nations is run like that.
It's a characterisitic of the powerful to keep all the people subjugated and remain in power, especially with large populations, when it comes to freedom of ideas or criticism.
You did mention that here too - "I wouldn't claim for a second that all of the problems in these countries are down to Islam alone"
Those in power of Islamic countries that abuse and mutilate women, and minorities are dead set fluffybunnies though - but it works for them and as you said others in power from other areas don't seem to give a hoot, not if there's a buck to be made.
freedom of speech and the right to criticise is only properly practised in very view countries in my experience and observations
All religion slows down the human race in my opinion - but that's just a simple statement with no solution
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@Siam said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
I just realised nobody often mentions Malaysia in discussions about Islam and a western outlook.
Not flaming or trolling, just sayingAt the moment a place you associate with feral Islam , the Saudis have been over there lately spreading some cash around though so who knows how long that's will last.
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@jegga said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
At the moment a place you associate with feral Islam , the Saudis have been over there lately spreading some cash around though so who knows how long that's will last.
Yep, we are actively arming Saudi & helping them fight Iran & greenlighting all Saudi & Qatari investment in the West & guess which group fund almost all islamic terror & extremism worldwide.... Indo is the same, incredibly tolerant branch of Islam, woman President & now its getting a more radical thanks to massive Saudi fuding for Wahabbi mosques. That country is a fucking cancer.
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@jegga said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@gollum when you say "we"?
UK, US, France.
Pretty much any western state is actively supporting the Saudis. Even those not supporting is greenlighting their investment. Saudi's are building mosques & madrassas in half the contries around the planet. See a Mosque under construction in US, France or UK chances are its Saudsi or Qatari funded.
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Hitchens is reading from his book, so it's not the usual confrontational debate society clip; some really good stuff researching the early history and beliefs and mostly the severe contradictions inherent in the religion being the "final word" that prevents it from having a reformation the way the other major religions evolved.
I especially like the last minute where he raises the discrepancy from scholar Christian Luxemberg about a mistranslation in the unalterable "final word" of God about a passage in Arabic that was more likely written originally in Syriac Aramaic and the 72 "virgins" that jihadists expect to receive in the hereafter should actually be translated to mean "raisins".
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@Salacious-Crumb Raisins? I thought it was the sultan-a that was king among dried fruit for Muslims.
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List of terror incidents for the past two months of 2017.
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Your graph is a misleading piece of shit.
Here's the actual report -
Not a SINGLE western countrry is included. Its mostly the worst shtholes in Africa. Over half the countries in the survey Sharia is already law, so you are asking not "do you favor Sharia?" but "do you favour the rule of law in the country?". -
The survey also finds that views about instituting sharia in the domestic-civil sphere frequently mirror a country’s existing legal system. Asked whether religious judges should decide family and property disputes, at least half of Muslims living in countries that have religious family courts answer yes.4 By contrast, in countries where secular courts oversee family matters, fewer than half of Muslims think that family and property disputes should be within the purview of religious judges.
Other are countries where the rule of law isd corrupt & abysmall (eg Chad or Nigeria), so offering a rule of law that is not (regardless of basis), shockingly is prefered. You go to a country with no laws & say "would you favour a clear set of laws based on religion" you'll get a yes.
You also miss this tiny caveat -
The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.
Basically wherever you got the graph (I'm guessing infowars or somewhere utter shit) just cherry picked it & assumed its reader would never actually question it as it pandered to whatever they already thought. Which worked.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Your graph is a misleading piece of shit.
Here's the actual report -
Not a SINGLE western countrry is included. Its mostly the worst shtholes in Africa. Over half the countries in the survey Sharia is already law, so you are asking not "do you favor Sharia?" but "do you favour the rule of law in the country?". -
The survey also finds that views about instituting sharia in the domestic-civil sphere frequently mirror a country’s existing legal system. Asked whether religious judges should decide family and property disputes, at least half of Muslims living in countries that have religious family courts answer yes.4 By contrast, in countries where secular courts oversee family matters, fewer than half of Muslims think that family and property disputes should be within the purview of religious judges.
Other are countries where the rule of law isd corrupt & abysmall (eg Chad or Nigeria), so offering a rule of law that is not (regardless of basis), shockingly is prefered. You go to a country with no laws & say "would you favour a clear set of laws based on religion" you'll get a yes.
You also miss this tiny caveat -
The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.
Basically wherever you got the graph (I'm guessing infowars or somewhere utter shit) just cherry picked it & assumed its reader would never actually question it as it pandered to whatever they already thought. Which worked.
It isnt misleading, it gives a pretty accurate view of how claims of Islam being a benign religion should be treated, and it also included a the link to the report.
And I really think it is funny that your post uses cherry picking to attack cherry picking....I am afraid Frank has a ways to go before matching the shit graph you posted with CNN being described as centrist....
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
It isnt misleading, it gives a pretty accurate view of how claims of Islam being a benign religion should be treated, and it also included a the link to the report.
How is it accurate - it completely ignores the most important caveat given up front in the report that no 2 groups actually agreed on what Sharia they were advocating was?
It also lists 1.62b Muslims worldwide and then links to a report that omited regions with huge muslim populations. That report does not represent 1.6bn Muslims & nowhere does it claim to, it reflects Muslims in a a number of muslim countries. None of them in the West. Franks graphic misrepresents that by claiming it covered all muslims. Which is bullshit.
It (and you) also utterly ignore -
Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies.
Similarly, the survey finds no consistent link between support for enshrining sharia as official law and attitudes toward religiously motivated violence.
Which is a core part of the report.
Even this bit -
Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters.
Given a choice between a leader with a strong hand or a democratic system of government, most Muslims choose democracy.
Completely shits on what Franks graph is trying to push
The idea of that graphic is "here's a lie, we'll say "Based On" to cut ourselves some slack & then embed the link so it cant be clicked on, no one in our target group will check, they'll just share on facebook & like minded morons will nod & "like""
And it worked.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
It isnt
And it worked.
Yes, it garnered an entire 1 like.
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I meant on Facebook, where I assume Frank found it. I bet its fricking standard backup in most Alt Right facebook circle jerks, confirming what they all know.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters.
You [Update EDIT Correction: PEW Research] pose[s] this as an either-or. But what if it's both? Can it be possible self-identified "normal" and "not extremist" Muslims express support for democracy AND also desire a strong religious leader interjecting influence into their political matters telling them how to vote?
Fahad Quereshi advocates for democracy. See how he enjoys polling referendums on cultural issues with his self-described "normal" flock. He's the strong religious leader. Then look at the the democratic will of 99-or-so percent of them who self-identify as perfectly "normal" Muslims being perfectly okay with death penalties for homosexuals and stonings for adulterers as punishments for their abominations in the eyes of Allah.
"These ["extreme, radical views" as you say] are general views that every Muslim actually has, every Muslim believes these things. Just because they're not telling you about it, just because they're not out there in the media doesn't mean they don't believe it."
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@Salacious-Crumb said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters.
You pose this as an either-or.
No, I clearly don't. Nor does the pew report I'm clearly quoting.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
I meant on Facebook, where I assume Frank found it. I bet its fricking standard backup in most Alt Right facebook circle jerks, confirming what they all know.
Facebook. Seriously? I thought they were 4chan.
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism