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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
That 2nd comment is stupid.
Agreed. But it wasn't my comment, so I'm not embarrassed about it.
Neither is the author.
I don't care. Give a proper example.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Is there a word for people who hate the Christian religions? Plenty of people on thin ice if they're going to crack down on people bad mouthing religions. This so-called Islamaphobia is nothing compared to what, for example, Catholicism gets dished up. Check out that new Jude Law series about the pope.
Thats a veeery tame attempt to deflect. You want to look at other religions getting systematically demonised & where it leads take a less obvious one - Jehovas Witnesses, they've been full on persectured repeatedly.
For me its the difference between a mentality that goes "huh, a chick in a hijab / jew with a hat / sikh with a turban, woop-dee" and "huh, a chick in a hijab / jew with a hat / sikh with a turban, go back whewre you came from you fucking piece of shit"
One way lies very bad things. And always has. All that changes is the religion on the receiving end.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Is there a word for people who hate the Christian religions? Plenty of people on thin ice if they're going to crack down on people bad mouthing religions. This so-called Islamaphobia is nothing compared to what, for example, Catholicism gets dished up. Check out that new Jude Law series about the pope.
Thats a veeery tame attempt to deflect.
No it isn't.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
I don't care. Give a proper example.
Alright, we're talking about whether "Islamophobia" is a word (or term) that has merit or can be applied in a context, right? Maybe its a stupid word, but its a word, and its out there.
Applied to Islam, in the context of phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
Let's start with a couple of simple points so we're not just shooting pages of material at each other: Protesting the building of a mosque in Bendigo.
Those against say it will lead to hate preaching and "... the clash of civilisations that Islam wants to WIN" (From the facebook page).
What are your thoughts on their fears about Islam? Are they rational to protest the building of a place of worship on the assumption that hate speech will be preached there?
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
I don't care. Give a proper example.
Alright, we're talking about whether "Islamophobia" is a word (or term) that has merit or can be applied in a context, right? Maybe its a stupid word, but its a word, and its out there.
Applied to Islam, in the context of phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
Let's start with a couple of simple points so we're not just shooting pages of material at each other: Protesting the building of a mosque in Bendigo.
Those against say it will lead to hate preaching and "... the clash of civilisations that Islam wants to WIN" (From the facebook page).
What are your thoughts on their fears about Islam? Are they rational to protest the building of a place of worship on the assumption that hate speech will be preached there?
Is it irrational to assume that hate speech will be preached there?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Is it irrational to assume that hate speech will be preached there?
I asked you first
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Is it irrational to assume that hate speech will be preached there?
I asked you first
Well look at it this way. Do you think people would be protesting a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh temple or a synagogue? I very much doubt it. So the question is why they would be against a mosque. Is it a phobia or perhaps something else?
Another question for you Nick. Would you happily accept having a big mosque built in your street or in close proximity to your street?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Well look at it this way. Do you think people would be protesting a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh temple or a synagogue?
That's not really making the argument for "rational" either. And it depends entirely on whether there is cause to or whether it is likely to harm someone
Particularly if you're in a community like Bendigo (pop 110k) that has a limited Muslim population (quoted as "over 300"), and whose plans for the Mosque passed through LGA and various tribunals all the way to the High Court of Victoria.
It has passed the test of Law. There is no recourse until they have proof that hate speech is occurring in this mosque.
Presumption of innocence is part of sharia law as well, incidentally.
I very much doubt it. So the question is why they would be against a mosque. Is it a phobia or perhaps something else?
I'd suggest, if they can't pin it down better than "something else", its closer to irrational. But I know what you mean.
If people aren't willing to give someone else a fair go, based on the actions of someone else who believes something similar to them, you're basically ripping the head off integration and shitting down its neck.
Another question for you Nick. Would you happily accept having a big mosque built in your street or in close proximity to your street?
If it wasn't breaching any Council laws, it would just be the same as any other place of worship to me i.e. retarded in my view, but hardly going to spoil my day.
Unless its blocking my solar panels
Spoiler alert: I live about 7km as the crow flies from one of the biggest mosques in Sydney (and therefore Oceania). But they're Adhmadi so they don't get the same rap as Sunnis running the other mosques.
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Is this the poster you were talking about Nick? The one who bought up Islam?
Oh wait it was you! Jeez that must be a bit embarrassing for you....Yeah... Don't think I'm the one who should be embarrassed.
Let's recap for those that weren't following earlier:
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I brought up an incident in a very multicultural setting i.e. the local park, where a lot of Australians from all parts of the globe hang out - the LGA I live in features people all parts of Asia, South Asia, and a hefty dose of Saffers, Kiwis, and Brits. Different religions and belief systems. That sort of thing.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel and I had a bit of a back and forth about how that works out, the psychological links to DV and religion in which other religions were discussed
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@Catogrande gave us an anecdote about a Muslim friend of his wife's
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@gollum followed up with some slightly stronger language about various religions.
5) BARON RIDES IN ON THE FREEDOM UNICORN DECRYING THE COMPARISON OF ISLAM TO FUCKING ANYTHING UNDER THE LAW ACCORDING TO BARON AND THEN HURTLES BACK TO THE CASTLE OF TRUTH OUTSIDE DEEPEST, DARKEST REDNECKIA TO COUNT HIS IMAGINARY SNOWFLAKE COLLECTION AND READ "FREE SPEECH MONTHLY"
- At which point I decide that there are people who are unalterably cuntish and should probably do a thread all on their own where they can talk about the virtues of Free Speech while deleting things they don't like.
Jeez.... that is a lot of typing to say nothing of worth.
You bought up Islam. Not me. Own it.Although it is amusing you accuse others of being rednecks, cuntish and Islamophobes...when you where the one making bomb jokes based on religion.
I simply stated that other religions are irrelevant when deciding wether the clothes Islamic women are forced to wear are repressive or not. -
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Apropos of who brought up the subject of Islam in this thread (which I believe to be an irrelevant argument anyway...)
But here's how the thread started:-
The UK and indeed the rest of Europe are in big trouble IMO.
The youth are flocking to the more radical form of Islam, and whilst it is the norm for the youth to head towards more radical ideologies when younger and when they get older and wiser they move away... I see that as less likely in this situation as the ideology is so pervasive. It isnt like Socialism which most intelligent people slowly grow out of as they learn the way the world operates. -
Do you consider the covering of females part of the radical playbook?
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Well look at it this way. Do you think people would be protesting a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh temple or a synagogue?
That's not really making the argument for "rational" either. And it depends entirely on whether there is cause to or whether it is likely to harm someone
Particularly if you're in a community like Bendigo (pop 110k) that has a limited Muslim population (quoted as "over 300"), and whose plans for the Mosque passed through LGA and various tribunals all the way to the High Court of Victoria.
It has passed the test of Law. There is no recourse until they have proof that hate speech is occurring in this mosque.
Presumption of innocence is part of sharia law as well, incidentally.
I very much doubt it. So the question is why they would be against a mosque. Is it a phobia or perhaps something else?
I'd suggest, if they can't pin it down better than "something else", its closer to irrational. But I know what you mean.
If people aren't willing to give someone else a fair go, based on the actions of someone else who believes something similar to them, you're basically ripping the head off integration and shitting down its neck.
Another question for you Nick. Would you happily accept having a big mosque built in your street or in close proximity to your street?
If it wasn't breaching any Council laws, it would just be the same as any other place of worship to me i.e. retarded in my view, but hardly going to spoil my day.
Unless its blocking my solar panels
Spoiler alert: I live about 7km as the crow flies from one of the biggest mosques in Sydney (and therefore Oceania). But they're Adhmadi so they don't get the same rap as Sunnis running the other mosques.
Nice way of ignoring why there would be no objections to other places of worship. Explain that and you get to the absolute core of the issue.
Here's the thing Nick. People see the appalling shit committed daily in the name of Islam. They see the terrorism committed by young men who have been radicalised in mosques. They see the freedom sacks, the head scarves and burqinis. They see the treatment of women and gays. They see the types of attitudes or beliefs that were out of date even when their grandparents were young. The see a culture that is completely at odds with their own.
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
No. If you're only going to take the very worst, then no. Can't blame them at all. Its new and scary and easy to assume the worst, based on what they see and are satisfied with. I grew up in smalltown Australia and mistrust of the new is a way of life.
I'm not saying Islam is 100% right and should be left completely to its own devices. But you're not going to assist in reform or assimilation at any level if you keep marginalising it through ignorance and fear.
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
No. If you're only going to take the very worst, then no. Can't blame them at all. Its new and scary and easy to assume the worst, based on what they see and are satisfied with. I grew up in smalltown Australia and mistrust of the new is a way of life.
I'm not saying Islam is 100% right and should be left completely to its own devices. But you're not going to assist in reform or assimilation at any level if you keep marginalising it through ignorance and fear.
You think Islam will reform or assimilate if they allow a mosque to be built in Bendigo? When has Islam been shown to reform or assimilate in any of the dozens of towns and cities in western nations that have permitted mosques to be built?
And again, why would there likely be no objection to places of worship of other faith? Why does this ignorance and fear only apply to Muslims?
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
No. If you're only going to take the very worst, then no. Can't blame them at all. Its new and scary and easy to assume the worst, based on what they see and are satisfied with. I grew up in smalltown Australia and mistrust of the new is a way of life.
I'm not saying Islam is 100% right and should be left completely to its own devices. But you're not going to assist in reform or assimilation at any level if you keep marginalising it through ignorance and fear.
I think the awful treatment of women by Muslims is not constrained to their worst/extremes.
My observation is that sort of treatment is commonplace.
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Yup, I'm pretty sick of the arguments that claim "ignorance" is why people don't like Islam, or that it's a religion we in the west could never understand.
It's not difficult to understand what happens in Muslim majority countries. The situation for women and homosexuals, among other people, is fucking dire largely due to the teachings of the Koran. It's not unreasonable at all for people in western countries to oppose the spread of such a toxic, backwards ideology in their own back yard. Ignorance has nothing to do with it, in fact quite the opposite, the more you learn about Islam the more you should oppose it.
And as @Baron-Silas-Greenback the line between moderate Muslim and fundamentalist Muslim is blurred at best.
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This post is deleted!
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I liked this comment
"A common argument that “Useful Infidels” (Useful idiots) raise when they want to ignore bad things happening because of Islam is to shut down those pointing the problem out by saying. ” But not all Muslims do that.” It is an argument that attacks a straw man as those condemning these problems have never and will never claim that all Muslims are responsible or that all Muslims think that way. The reality is that “Useful infidels” who make that comment do not care about the people who are being affected or hurt. In their warped world view, they will not care until ALL Muslims are responsible which means of course that they will never care."
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback no, they don't say that all muslims do XYZ, but they do say that all islam must be stopped. i.e. a mosque can't be built in bendigo, no muslim refugees, etc.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
You think Islam will reform or assimilate if they allow a mosque to be built in Bendigo? When has Islam been shown to reform or assimilate in any of the dozens of towns and cities in western nations that have permitted mosques to be built?
do you not think there are moderate muslims in western countries, who lead relatively normal lives and play a normal role in society? or do they not count somehow? is SBW not assimilated?
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism