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@Snowy said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
That's an MMP democracy. Which I believe was voted in, by a democratic vote.
Yes, but was it the will of the people to have Winston there? Is the ideology of democracy being upheld?
Everyone will have their opportunity to cast judgement on that later this year
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@JC said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Snowy said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
That's also democracy though. If racing is your life and you know Winston will do his best for the racing industry, you vote for Winston.
Yes, if that is your bag, you do, but no it's not democracy , which is supposed to be the will of the majority. Not many voted for Winston. They government was constructed by him and Labour, not the general will of the people.
That's an MMP democracy. Which I believe was voted in, by a democratic vote.
I think it’s stretching the bounds of credibility to suggest that a majority of the electorate voted with the expectation that a coalition with this composition would be the result. Or for that matter that many people who voted Labour were happy with a supposed left of centre government with Winston Peters. If Jacinda had secured enough votes for a majority with just the Greens then none of the Labourati would give Winston a second thought. Except to push hard for his prosecution for a lot of the electoral law breaches that have been suggested.
If people now claim that wouldn't have voted for MMP as they didn't see this coming, they should be treated with the same contempt as those who voted Brexit then claimed they didn't know what they were voting for. It's a double standard to suggest anything else.
People voted for MMP. MMP mean that parties would need to get into bed together. This gave the smaller parties a significant higher amount of power, which means that coalitions like this one were always a chance. I still remember asking my teacher about this in 1992 (when I was 14) and her saying this was the potential downside. I wasn't in NZ for 2011 so perhaps this wasn't discussed then - not for me to know, but voters have a self responsibility to be aware what they are voting for.
I don't believe it's stretching the bounds of credibility either. National had such a stranglehold for years in NZ, that the only way to oust them was a tri-party gathering.
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@MajorRage said in NZ Politics:
People voted for MMP. MMP mean that parties would need to get into bed together. This gave the smaller parties a significant higher amount of power, which means that coalitions like this one were always a chance.
MMP is party oriented, which empowers parties and conforming to parties - primarily through the List. Play the party game, or don't get a seat.
FPP has a strong party element, but you have smaller electorates that are often more independent, and a clear (and arguably more direct) relationship between the voters and the representative.
MMP seems designed to avoid the 80's and 90's, where a small part of cabinet drove cabinet, that drove the party caucus, that then drove government direction. Basically a few people making decisions with little to no check or balance outside their political party. MMP introduces the requirement to get other parties on board, and leads to many, smaller incremental changes. Helen Clark and John Key understood it, and were effective in it. Big changes, but made slowly and incrementally (rather than shock and awe like 80's Labour)
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I'm in a minority here in that I have experienced NZ under both MMP and FPP
@NZZP is spot on MMP was introduced so we didn't have the extremes of Rogernomics and Ruth Richardson's Mother of All Budgets ever again and from that perspective it has been a resounding success.
Personally I think the reforms of the 80's and early 90's were absolutely necessary to prevent us becoming Argentina but while I see why people hate MMP so much I prefer it to FPP because of Muldoon.
FPP allowed a drunken oligarch to effectively become the Tsar of NZ (ironic given the dancing cossacks. Doubly ironic as the Cossacks fought against the Bolsheviks) Muldoon controlled every level of a cowed caucus and the constituency election process to put in his people. He did whatever he wanted on a whim and all because he knew best. Imagine Winston as PM (Winnies a big fan of Muldoon) That's what FPP delivered to NZ
As for the unfairness of MMP - Two elections in a row National won by a landslide with less than 50% of the vote. That's far less democratic than MMP.
Yeah, yeah. Winnie's the kingmaker. Quelle surprise. Anyone who didn't predict that shouldn't be allowed to vote. As for Labour voters not wanting to go with Winston. Some maybe, but most were overjoyed to have wrestled control against all the odds. They'd have dome a deal with the devil to get power. Winnie (the odd stupid remark aside) has actually behaved himself. It usually the last year of an election cycle he gets difficult as he tries to position NZF as different from the govt. COVID has sort of postponed that.
On top of which its not as if its not as if National under Brash didn't try and cobble together and even more outrageous coalition and at the time their supporters thought it was genius.
MMP is flawed but not as badly as FPP. Most of the issues could be fixed by making it easier for smaller parties to get into parliament so NZF wasn't so important.
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@Tim said in NZ Politics:
@dogmeat Fortunately/Unfortunately forums are for older people.
We are radio talkback to snapchat and twitter
I liked sports radio talkback (sad face)
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@JC The current JBP will seem a mere bagatelle compared to the totality of spending announced today.
Cindy has said it's going to JOBS, JOBS, JOBS but hasn't be able to resist throwing it words like diversity, equity, sustainability and carbon footprint.
I reckon there will be something to piss everyone off
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@JC said in NZ Politics:
Budget Day. Let's see what Robertson is made of. Personally I just hope he reallocates the Shane Jones Bribery Pot. There are better things he could be doing with that money right now.
That, and the 'fee free' tertiary would be the first two on the block if I were your benevolent dictator.
Quickly followed by a massive infrastructure spend, temporary lifting debt caps for COuncil (or loaning them money at Crown rates and not counting it on the balance sheets). Deficits here we come - but temporarily.
I would not be trying to pick winners in industry. People will figure those out and risk their own money/effort once the framework is clear. I do not think this is what we'll see. I think we will see some industries being picked to succeed, and others being abandoned. I do not think this will end well.
here's hoping!
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@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
Budget Day. Let's see what Robertson is made of. Personally I just hope he reallocates the Shane Jones Bribery Pot. There are better things he could be doing with that money right now.
That, and the 'fee free' tertiary would be the first two on the block if I were your benevolent dictator.
Quickly followed by a massive infrastructure spend, temporary lifting debt caps for COuncil (or loaning them money at Crown rates and not counting it on the balance sheets). Deficits here we come - but temporarily.
I would not be trying to pick winners in industry. People will figure those out and risk their own money/effort once the framework is clear. I do not think this is what we'll see. I think we will see some industries being picked to succeed, and others being abandoned. I do not think this will end well.
here's hoping!
I'm ambivalent on the big infrastructure projects. In the short to medium term they may not provide much stimulus, as it's typically consultants who get to latch onto the tit first. I'm not sure how much it helps stimulate the economy to give a KPMG partner some more money to put straight onto a term deposit.
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@Paekakboyz Consultants will always find a way to clip the ticket. And holding an initiative still for a while so you get more than one clip is a specialty in its own right.
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@JC said in NZ Politics:
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
Budget Day. Let's see what Robertson is made of. Personally I just hope he reallocates the Shane Jones Bribery Pot. There are better things he could be doing with that money right now.
That, and the 'fee free' tertiary would be the first two on the block if I were your benevolent dictator.
Quickly followed by a massive infrastructure spend, temporary lifting debt caps for COuncil (or loaning them money at Crown rates and not counting it on the balance sheets). Deficits here we come - but temporarily.
I would not be trying to pick winners in industry. People will figure those out and risk their own money/effort once the framework is clear. I do not think this is what we'll see. I think we will see some industries being picked to succeed, and others being abandoned. I do not think this will end well.
here's hoping!
I'm ambivalent on the big infrastructure projects. In the short to medium term they may not provide much stimulus, as it's typically consultants who get to latch onto the tit first. I'm not sure how much it helps stimulate the economy to give a KPMG partner some more money to put straight onto a term deposit.
Plenty of smaller consultancy firms get advisory gigs on these projects also, especially when projects go to competitive tender with 2-3 bidders. And even KPMG have suffered through this , they laid off staff and pushed pay cuts down to their staff, even at lower levels.
Infra may be slow moving, but you have to start it sometime and there are definite repercussions when you delay the spend.
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from what I have heard MOE, DOC MOE have had projects in the wings for months, but are now being pushed out in order to get them under way
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• $50 Bill of COVID spending – 30 of this has been already spent but key points of the remaining $20 Bill are:
• Wage subsidy has been extended by a further eight weeks for the worst-hit businesses. From 10 June, firms which can prove their revenue has halved over the previous 30 days compared to the year before will be eligible.
• A $150 Mill short-term loan scheme to incentivise businesses to continue research and development programmes which might otherwise be shut down.
• NZ Trade and Enterprise gets $216 Mill to support exporters
• $400 Mill for a domestic tourism campaign and support to support tourism businesses plan their next steps
• $1.1 Bill aimed at creating 11,000 jobs in pest control and wetland restoration.
• Kāinga Ora will borrow an estimated $5 Bill to pay for the building of 8,000 new state houses over the next four to five years. The Budget sets aside another $570 Mill in rent support for this project. The homes will include about 6,000 public houses and 2,000 transitional homes
• To date nearly 2,000 applications for funding of $12 Bill of shovel ready projects announced pre COVID. The Budgets adds a further $3 Bill to this pot, making a total $15 Bill available for infrastructure projects. The govt will decide soon which projects will get the go ahead
• Investment in rail has also been bumped up $1.2 Bill to reach $4.6 Bill
• Trades training for critical courses - such as building, construction and agriculture - will be made free for all ages over the next two years to help retrain people who've lose their jobs
• $1.6 Bill will go to the Trades and Apprenticeships Training Package which will help companies retain their trainees
• Of this $276 Mill will go towards setting up Workforce Development Councils and Skills Leadership Groups to monitor the job market around the country and plan for recovery.
• $32 Mill will go towards foodbanks and other community food services
• A $36 Mill fund has been set up for community groups who support Māori, Pacific, refugee and migrant communities to draw from
• $220 Mill over two years to grow the school lunch scheme from 8,000 students to about 200,000 by the middle of next year
• $56 Mill to the "Warmer Kiwi Homes" scheme to cover 90 percent of the costs of insulation or heating retrofit for low-income households in an estimated 9,000 homes
• As previously announced DHB’s will get an extra $3.92 billion over four years and a one-off $282.5 Mill to catch up on elective surgery after the lockdown
• $150 Mill over four years on pay equity settlements for Early Childhood Centre staff – also previously announced.
• $1.77 Bill for Defence
• $900 Mill support package for Māori, including $200 Mill employment package and $400 Mill increase to education
• $833 Mill to go towards disability support services
• $400 Mill to replace Interislander ferries
• Govt faces at least seven years of budget deficits and historically high debt, as it borrows to cushion the economy from the pandemic. The deficit will hit around $29 billion over the next two years before easing back to around $5b in 2024. Govt revenue is not expected to recover to pre-virus levels for two years, while expenses are forecast to be more than a third higher. Therefore borrowing a total of $190 Bill over the next four years, lifting govt debt to 54% of GDP. Treasury forecasts have debt above 40% through to the mid-2030s.
NZ Politics