-
@kirwan it is BS, but Hone and his crew seem to do whatever they like and get away with it.
I feel for the businesses in the North that will suffer further hardship due to these actions, I hope Cindy allows them to claim more of the Covid handouts cos essentially it will be L3.
-
@mariner4life That’s a really seductive argument. I don’t think there’s any doubt that the gap is growing between the remuneration of working people and the people who manage the companies they work for. There’s plenty of data to support that.
But we’re really talking about several different things.
The most obvious inequality is between the Brin/ Bezos/ Gates/ Zuckerberg class and ordinary people. Their returns are entrepreneurial - they started and still own major holdings in companies that are effectively infrastructure. Their companies are basically taking a haircut on a significant fraction of the world’s commerce. You can discount them from this discussion, they do what the hell they like.
The argument about productivity is relevant for the majority of publicly traded companies though. Once upon a time, broadly speaking a company paid suppliers for raw materials, paid wages, did some marketing, made some investments in plant and that was its inputs. It sold what it made and that was its outputs. Loosely, the outputs minus the inputs was the profit or loss. The outputs divided by the inputs was the productivity. Shareholders care about profit because that’s what decides how much of a dividend they’ll get. They also care about productivity, but only because the markets do: it’s one of the things analysts use to decide whether to buy or sell their stock, which affects the stock price, which determines how much the shares the shareholder has are worth.
Shareholders want the people who manage their companies to minimise inputs and maximise outputs because that’s what affects their wealth, and pay them accordingly. That factor is made toxic when the managers are paid in shares in the company, as it is in their best interests to minimise inputs in the short term because it increases productivity and profit. In the short term...
In itself productivity doesn’t matter much after all it’s just a ratio. But it doesn’t exist in a vacuum: analysts and brokers are aware of it and chart it and use it as a measurement of how well the managers are doing their job of managing inputs and outputs. If they don’t like the trend they dump the stock and move onto the next one, which leaves existing shareholders butt-hurt and managers in fear of their jobs. The reality is that shareholders usually expect a dividend, and managers expect bonuses and in many companies if the workforce has to be paid less (either by holding up pay increases or reducing staff) they will.
One thing you do need to bear in mind though: the villains in this story are... you and me. By far the biggest shareholders in public companies are institutional investors: mutual funds, sovereigns, insurance companies, banks and above them all pension funds. They are doing this on your behalf, to make your retirement better. They think, probably with some justification, that if they act in a more principled way, well their principles won’t put bread on your table, and you’ll probably fire them and look elsewhere or even worse sue them for being negligent.
Funny old world, eh?
-
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan exactly what Shane Jones said in response to fears amongst Hone's community that covid would cause untold damage. So many people looking past the simplest course of action
I spent a decent amount of time in Northland on holidays (went to school there too). If they are going to set up Iwi roadblocks to check COVID passports, I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
Fuck Labour for making this sort of shit legal.
They have to be supervised by a constable (legal term for police officer), which was legal anyway as constables can request assistance from civilians under current legislation (and have always been able to).
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/latest/LMS344196.html is the relevant section of the legislation.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/288.0/LMS344196.html is the previous version prior to the amendment referred to in HDPA's article.
The addition of the power to stop vehicles under the supervision of a constable also includes members of the armed forces and community patrollers, and they are all authorised by the Commissioner of Police rather than the Director-General of Health as previously (enforcement officers for this law are authorised by the DG). These seem useful to me both as clarification and as providing for supervision remaining with the police.
Also, if the police wanted to include these groups or others in assisting them without this change, they could temporarily employ or second them to the police as police employees (so don't even need to make them constables specifically) while having the original employer (for secondees) continuing to pay the wages.
As adults living in NZ, we still have the powers of citizen's arrest, to assist police to arrest people, and to bring private prosecutions. These concepts date back to Anglo-Saxon times and are not recent additions although they have been moderated over time by the introduction of police forces. Police currently welcome volunteers as here - it is traditional policing to work with and alongside communities.
Woohoo. A posse. Where’s my horse?
-
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan exactly what Shane Jones said in response to fears amongst Hone's community that covid would cause untold damage. So many people looking past the simplest course of action
I spent a decent amount of time in Northland on holidays (went to school there too). If they are going to set up Iwi roadblocks to check COVID passports, I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
Fuck Labour for making this sort of shit legal.
They have to be supervised by a constable (legal term for police officer), which was legal anyway as constables can request assistance from civilians under current legislation (and have always been able to).
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/latest/LMS344196.html is the relevant section of the legislation.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/288.0/LMS344196.html is the previous version prior to the amendment referred to in HDPA's article.
The addition of the power to stop vehicles under the supervision of a constable also includes members of the armed forces and community patrollers, and they are all authorised by the Commissioner of Police rather than the Director-General of Health as previously (enforcement officers for this law are authorised by the DG). These seem useful to me both as clarification and as providing for supervision remaining with the police.
Also, if the police wanted to include these groups or others in assisting them without this change, they could temporarily employ or second them to the police as police employees (so don't even need to make them constables specifically) while having the original employer (for secondees) continuing to pay the wages.
As adults living in NZ, we still have the powers of citizen's arrest, to assist police to arrest people, and to bring private prosecutions. These concepts date back to Anglo-Saxon times and are not recent additions although they have been moderated over time by the introduction of police forces. Police currently welcome volunteers as here - it is traditional policing to work with and alongside communities.
Seriously, this is a hairsbreadth away from vigilantism isn’t it? If we need more police, get more police.
None of the volunteers linked there have any power beyond surveillance. This is not the same. Hone Harawira can ask me to account for my movements, identity and medical status, and I don’t have any way to refuse him.
How the fuck did we get here? Because the Government was too scared to tell Hone to get back in his box and abide by the law just like everybody else?
-
@jc said in NZ Politics:
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan exactly what Shane Jones said in response to fears amongst Hone's community that covid would cause untold damage. So many people looking past the simplest course of action
I spent a decent amount of time in Northland on holidays (went to school there too). If they are going to set up Iwi roadblocks to check COVID passports, I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
Fuck Labour for making this sort of shit legal.
They have to be supervised by a constable (legal term for police officer), which was legal anyway as constables can request assistance from civilians under current legislation (and have always been able to).
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/latest/LMS344196.html is the relevant section of the legislation.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/288.0/LMS344196.html is the previous version prior to the amendment referred to in HDPA's article.
The addition of the power to stop vehicles under the supervision of a constable also includes members of the armed forces and community patrollers, and they are all authorised by the Commissioner of Police rather than the Director-General of Health as previously (enforcement officers for this law are authorised by the DG). These seem useful to me both as clarification and as providing for supervision remaining with the police.
Also, if the police wanted to include these groups or others in assisting them without this change, they could temporarily employ or second them to the police as police employees (so don't even need to make them constables specifically) while having the original employer (for secondees) continuing to pay the wages.
As adults living in NZ, we still have the powers of citizen's arrest, to assist police to arrest people, and to bring private prosecutions. These concepts date back to Anglo-Saxon times and are not recent additions although they have been moderated over time by the introduction of police forces. Police currently welcome volunteers as here - it is traditional policing to work with and alongside communities.
Seriously, this is a hairsbreadth away from vigilantism isn’t it? If we need more police, get more police.
None of the volunteers linked there have any power beyond surveillance. This is not the same. Hone Harawira can ask me to account for my movements, identity and medical status, and I don’t have any way to refuse him.
How the fuck did we get here? Because the Government was too scared to tell Hone to get back in his box and abide by the law just like everybody else?
@jc said in NZ Politics:
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan exactly what Shane Jones said in response to fears amongst Hone's community that covid would cause untold damage. So many people looking past the simplest course of action
I spent a decent amount of time in Northland on holidays (went to school there too). If they are going to set up Iwi roadblocks to check COVID passports, I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
Fuck Labour for making this sort of shit legal.
They have to be supervised by a constable (legal term for police officer), which was legal anyway as constables can request assistance from civilians under current legislation (and have always been able to).
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/latest/LMS344196.html is the relevant section of the legislation.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/288.0/LMS344196.html is the previous version prior to the amendment referred to in HDPA's article.
The addition of the power to stop vehicles under the supervision of a constable also includes members of the armed forces and community patrollers, and they are all authorised by the Commissioner of Police rather than the Director-General of Health as previously (enforcement officers for this law are authorised by the DG). These seem useful to me both as clarification and as providing for supervision remaining with the police.
Also, if the police wanted to include these groups or others in assisting them without this change, they could temporarily employ or second them to the police as police employees (so don't even need to make them constables specifically) while having the original employer (for secondees) continuing to pay the wages.
As adults living in NZ, we still have the powers of citizen's arrest, to assist police to arrest people, and to bring private prosecutions. These concepts date back to Anglo-Saxon times and are not recent additions although they have been moderated over time by the introduction of police forces. Police currently welcome volunteers as here - it is traditional policing to work with and alongside communities.
Seriously, this is a hairsbreadth away from vigilantism isn’t it? If we need more police, get more police.
None of the volunteers linked there have any power beyond surveillance. This is not the same. Hone Harawira can ask me to account for my movements, identity and medical status, and I don’t have any way to refuse him.
How the fuck did we get here? Because the Government was too scared to tell Hone to get back in his box and abide by the law just like everybody else?
What happens if someone refuses these checkpoints and demands to only speak to a real police officer? Can see problems.
And fuck this idea of their being a border between Auckland and Northland, or anywhere else. There isn't.
-
@frank said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@godder look at the difference in how the southern "border" is being policed. Spot checks by police - perfectly reasonable.
In the north, Iwi groups have taken it upon themselves to set up their own checkpoints and a law has been ammended to make this legal.
I believe in one law for everybody, and these groups should have been told to leave policing to the police. Now if the police decided to get help from ANY community group, that's fine.
Being held to ransom by Hone, and even worse, backing down to them has let them know when push comes to shove the law is applied differently by race. A terrible precedent.
As for the outcome? As posted above, struggling businesses lose more customers as Aucklanders avoid controntations with effectively vigilante groups. And if you think all the checkpoints will have police at them all over Northland I have a bridge to sell you (and I have a second if you think anybody will get arrested putting them up).
I am surprised there is not more outrage about this or on this thread. From afar this a terrible look. Typical kiwi seems to shrug their shoulders and move on. Afraid of offending????
I honestly wasn’t surprised.
My wife and I looked at land up north, now we are glad we went with the property in the South Island.
Even there though, we are thinking about selling our land there and buying a piece of beachfront property in south Japan.
-
I'm not sure if the measurement of productivity has changed, but I do remember in 2006-7ish there being consternation that;
- Our productivity per hour worked was something like second to last in the OECD behind Greece
- Our hours worked on average per week were among the highest (either before or after Iceland).
Someone then brought out an old Cabinet paper stating improving productivity was the number one priority for the NZ economy. Unfortunately that Cabinet paper was from 1978, and neither they nor any of us since seem to have made much of a dent in the stats at a macro level...
One of the data analysts involved did wryly observe that we could rocket NZ up the graph by firing everyone earning under, say, $30 per hour at the time. Wages then (and now?) being a proxy for productivity measurement in the service sector. Horrendous socially and a recipe for anarchy, but the graph would have looked good...
NZ has tended more towards full employment than better productivity. France was one of the most productive OECD nations (behind only the US?), but also had the lowest average hours worked, circa 10% unemployment, much higher again youth unemployment, and riots that northern summer... The US had the best of both worlds.
-
@frank said in NZ Politics:
Afraid of offending????
That's exactly what it is. Small wonder this is what you get with "be kind" leadership.
When does this provision get grandfathered? How long until they implement a toll to pay for these arbitrary borders?
-
@gt12 said in NZ Politics:
@frank said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@godder look at the difference in how the southern "border" is being policed. Spot checks by police - perfectly reasonable.
In the north, Iwi groups have taken it upon themselves to set up their own checkpoints and a law has been ammended to make this legal.
I believe in one law for everybody, and these groups should have been told to leave policing to the police. Now if the police decided to get help from ANY community group, that's fine.
Being held to ransom by Hone, and even worse, backing down to them has let them know when push comes to shove the law is applied differently by race. A terrible precedent.
As for the outcome? As posted above, struggling businesses lose more customers as Aucklanders avoid controntations with effectively vigilante groups. And if you think all the checkpoints will have police at them all over Northland I have a bridge to sell you (and I have a second if you think anybody will get arrested putting them up).
I am surprised there is not more outrage about this or on this thread. From afar this a terrible look. Typical kiwi seems to shrug their shoulders and move on. Afraid of offending????
I honestly wasn’t surprised.
My wife and I looked at land up north, now we are glad we went with the property in the South Island.
Even there though, we are thinking about selling our land there and buying a piece of beachfront property in south Japan.
That's an easy decision. Sayonara Te Waipounamu.
-
@jc This was the reason for my whistle blowing comment that annoyed Kirwan. Apart from Seymour labelling those manning the border checkpoints as thugs (which to me instantly conveys an image of intimidating gang members) is there any real evidence of the border being controlled by people likely to give you a hiding.
All I've seen are images of kaumatua and kuia. Now I totally get this could be window dressing but a quick google of gangs manning border brought up nothing.
Years ago I was turned back by some pretty fucking fierce looking bro's manning the road from Taneatua into the Urerewa because it wasn't my country so I understand the potential issue. Just I haven't seen evidence of it and would expect the media to be all over it if this was the case.
I have pretty much turned off a lot of reporting of Covid as I am over it. I basically follow it through the Fern so I'm pretty much compromised as a source for credible commentary
-
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
the Fern so I'm pretty much compromised as a source for credible commentary
and there is our new tag line
-
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@jc This was the reason for my whistle blowing comment that annoyed Kirwan. Apart from Seymour labelling those manning the border checkpoints as thugs (which to me instantly conveys an image of intimidating gang members) is there any real evidence of the border being controlled by people likely to give you a hiding.
All I've seen are images of kaumatua and kuia. Now I totally get this could be window dressing but a quick google of gangs manning border brought up nothing.
Years ago I was turned back by some pretty fucking fierce looking bro's manning the road from Taneatua into the Urerewa because it wasn't my country so I understand the potential issue. Just I haven't seen evidence of it and would expect the media to be all over it if this was the case.
I have pretty much turned off a lot of reporting of Covid as I am over it. I basically follow it through the Fern so I'm pretty much compromised as a source for credible commentary
It annoyed me because as I mentioned above, if you criticise people taking the law into their own hands you get labelled racist. It's a pathetic take.
-
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
It annoyed me because as I mentioned above, if you criticise people taking the law into their own hands you get labelled racist. It's a pathetic take.
In fairness, the critique is the law - Iwi checkpoints are legal (this time around). It's not taking the law into their own hands, it's enabling legislation that is concerning in practice.
alternatively, you're just racist of course
-
@kirwan I get it. I think I said I won't be heading north because of the queues which is a shame - personally and for the Duke of Marlborough
I agree about the race argument which is getting dragged into more and more of everyday life. I also get that for some people race is indelibly part of their everyday life.
I have real concerns about the racial divide widening because of Covid and think that one comment which he doubled down on by Seymour was gratuitous playing of the race card. This disappoints me as Seymour is possibly my favourite politician. What he's done to hold the government to account and hold together the new ACT caucus has been astoundingly adept.
-
@dogmeat It was glib, sorry. I should have simply said that’s when the violence starts. It’s just as likely to be started by some guy in a car who is sick and tired of having waited for hours in a queue of thousands of cars only to be asked by some worthy for his pass and gets triggered by it. Someone will lose their shit on one side or the other, we both know it.
-
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@godder said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan exactly what Shane Jones said in response to fears amongst Hone's community that covid would cause untold damage. So many people looking past the simplest course of action
I spent a decent amount of time in Northland on holidays (went to school there too). If they are going to set up Iwi roadblocks to check COVID passports, I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
Fuck Labour for making this sort of shit legal.
They have to be supervised by a constable (legal term for police officer), which was legal anyway as constables can request assistance from civilians under current legislation (and have always been able to).
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/latest/LMS344196.html is the relevant section of the legislation.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0012/288.0/LMS344196.html is the previous version prior to the amendment referred to in HDPA's article.
The addition of the power to stop vehicles under the supervision of a constable also includes members of the armed forces and community patrollers, and they are all authorised by the Commissioner of Police rather than the Director-General of Health as previously (enforcement officers for this law are authorised by the DG). These seem useful to me both as clarification and as providing for supervision remaining with the police.
Also, if the police wanted to include these groups or others in assisting them without this change, they could temporarily employ or second them to the police as police employees (so don't even need to make them constables specifically) while having the original employer (for secondees) continuing to pay the wages.
As adults living in NZ, we still have the powers of citizen's arrest, to assist police to arrest people, and to bring private prosecutions. These concepts date back to Anglo-Saxon times and are not recent additions although they have been moderated over time by the introduction of police forces. Police currently welcome volunteers as here - it is traditional policing to work with and alongside communities.
-
Two checkpoints to run 24/7 with @ 75 police staff assigned to the task.
It appears the Police will be stopping/directing the traffic and the Tai Tokerau border control staff will assist with checking the appropriate documentation.
It also appears that they will not be stopping every vehicle if traffic is heavy (and it will be).If that is actually the way they will operate then that may partially sooth some concerns re enforceability/legality.
IMHO it's a large waste of time and resources if you are not checking everyone or any of the multitude of yachts and launches sailing up out of Auckland. -
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
the racial divide widening because of Covid
The grievance industry seizes whatever opportunity arises. Next year it could be grouse shooting, or McDonalds food wrappers polluting the pristine sacred lands.
I have been most entertained by this campaign victory, watching one side expecting to have it's way and getting it, and the other prancing about pretending that is not the case.
I would have thought New Zealand had more pressing priorities, such as post disaster recovery and basic economic survival.
NZ Politics