Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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@chester-draws said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Thing is Salacious, they're not choosing between money and satisfaction. They're choosing between quite a lot of money with satisfaction and a bit more money. Stephen Donald won't be poor.
Once you've made a bit the extra stops bringing much satisfaction. People with a million in the bank are happier than those with none, of course. People with two million are often less happy, because they've had to make too many sacrifices along the way.
David Lee Roth is welcome to his boat. I wouldn't want it if it came with his string of broken relationships though.
It's fine for him though, he's just a Gigilo, everywhere he goes.
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@rotated said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Teams like the ABs provide a stable organization with a recent history of winning, a collection of elite players and top tier coaching. We've seen time and time again there is a group of players - usually the ultra driven ones - that will sacrifice money
and fameto play in that environment.A minor quibble. Fame you get playing for tge ABs.
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@rotated said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Unlike those professional teams that theoretically have an expiry date, as a national team providing we keep replenishing the cupboards with new talent (or run off our elite talent with a Mitch style coach) the sun should never set on the ABs.
That's an optimistic view. I think you can look at things another way and say to date (in this particular crisis) we've been lucky to have competent hands on the tiller - Tew, Henry, Hansen, Smith, Shand and various others - but, we're only a small handful of missteps away from being South Africa (or Brazil). I more tend to think we're in a potentially unsustainable position - it's hard to see where we are going to generate much more revenue from, so we've basically got to hope that the Euro rugby competitions are an even bigger house of cards - rather than something that is going to move in the direction of soccer - getting bigger, richer and offering a next level dimension of player payments.
I'm sure it sucked at the time but Lima doesn't owe the ABs or NZRU anything, especially given the role he has been given in the AB set up. He has no obligation to hang around and see if the he required for the next RWC....
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
It cuts both ways - Lima got selected in rep teams etc because he had talent - because he helped those teams win. It's not like they just picked some random player and turned him into a test quality player.
Lima not sticking around for the World Cup - well the ABs didnt want to select him for the 2015 World Cup - one each.
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@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
It cuts both ways - Lima got selected in rep teams etc because he had talent - because he helped those teams win. It's not like they just picked some random player and turned him into a test quality player.
Lima not sticking around for the World Cup - well the ABs didnt want to select him for the 2015 World Cup - one each.
No, it's not one each.
When has guaranteed selection ever been part of the All Blacks?
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@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
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@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
Or Hayman
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@kiwimurph Yep - probably all true, but I'm saying we can't afford to look at it from an individual's point of view. I think the deal with the ABs has always been clear - some people are McCaw and some are Marty Holah.
Now, Lima may be going with Hansen's blessing - and if he is, that's fine. But, I'd be pretty surprised if that's the case. I think specifically the deal should be that once you sign up, you stick around until the coach says it's fine to go.
Legally, of course, that's not enforceable - so we need to use similar tactics that George Nepia and Joe Karam were on the receiving end of.
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@tim See the comment on Nepia and Karam.
You could make big bucks playing rugby league compared to making nothing playing union - but, very few went.
A start is to change the mindset of "good on you for taking the money" and articles like Gifford's saying it was a wise move by Lima.
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@hooroo said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
Or Hayman
Or Lucky Luke. I remember when we lost Ridge and Gallagher in the space of weeks. First and second choice 15s gooone
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@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
Are you sure you're quoting the same people's opinions? Are the same people saying x about Luatua but a about Sopoaga?
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@tim Yeah I recall Piutau copped a bit, but then he seems more deserving IMO - he seemed like one at the start of a very promising career and had hardly even dipped his toe in. I don't recall the grief Luatua copped, his situation seems a fair bit more in line with Sopoaga though.
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@bones Steve Hansen gave Luatua a good serve - and well deserved it was too.
I think the NZRU kyboshed a Blues contract for Piutau, which is a starting point for the sort of spite I'm recommending.
I doubt I've given everyone who deserved it a serve on here, but I've certainly thought it. I sent a decent volley after Colin Slade - I don't like losing first fives.
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@nepia said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@majorrage I'm not sure why you targeted this thread at PIs,
Did you see my second post? I answered this quite clearly - not about targeting, they are just in focus at the moment.
@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
You are picking and choosing quotes from different people to make one point, so hardly a fair comparison. For what it's worth here's my view on each.
Cruden - 6 years an AB, firstly behind Carter, then Barrett. During which time the AB coaches played around with Slade and Sopoaga as well. I never doubted his drive for the AB's and I think when he started to doubt it, he jumped ship.
TKB - Was always a clear number 2, and then became a clear number 3. Never doubted his commitment for the AB's and was admittedly surprised when he jumped.
Luatua - He couldn't hold form. He was immense breakout and then average for next 2. As he was coming back into power, he realised he'd prefer to take the money and this created the scuffle with Hansen as they obviously didn't have any inclination this was coming
Sopoaga - I've written all I need to here.Reality is that this is a thread to discuss if the AB's are the pinnacle, or just a stepping stone to larger contracts ashore. The PI players are naturally in focus just due to the RLWC shenanigans.
I'm not saying all PI players aren't really in it - that would be disrespectful to a hell of a lot of people and not my scene. Just like I'm not saying all European/Maori players see the AB's as the pinnacle.