Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
It cuts both ways - Lima got selected in rep teams etc because he had talent - because he helped those teams win. It's not like they just picked some random player and turned him into a test quality player.
Lima not sticking around for the World Cup - well the ABs didnt want to select him for the 2015 World Cup - one each.
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@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
It cuts both ways - Lima got selected in rep teams etc because he had talent - because he helped those teams win. It's not like they just picked some random player and turned him into a test quality player.
Lima not sticking around for the World Cup - well the ABs didnt want to select him for the 2015 World Cup - one each.
No, it's not one each.
When has guaranteed selection ever been part of the All Blacks?
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@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
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@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
Or Hayman
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@kiwimurph Yep - probably all true, but I'm saying we can't afford to look at it from an individual's point of view. I think the deal with the ABs has always been clear - some people are McCaw and some are Marty Holah.
Now, Lima may be going with Hansen's blessing - and if he is, that's fine. But, I'd be pretty surprised if that's the case. I think specifically the deal should be that once you sign up, you stick around until the coach says it's fine to go.
Legally, of course, that's not enforceable - so we need to use similar tactics that George Nepia and Joe Karam were on the receiving end of.
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@tim See the comment on Nepia and Karam.
You could make big bucks playing rugby league compared to making nothing playing union - but, very few went.
A start is to change the mindset of "good on you for taking the money" and articles like Gifford's saying it was a wise move by Lima.
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@hooroo said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
Or Hayman
Or Lucky Luke. I remember when we lost Ridge and Gallagher in the space of weeks. First and second choice 15s gooone
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@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
Are you sure you're quoting the same people's opinions? Are the same people saying x about Luatua but a about Sopoaga?
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@tim Yeah I recall Piutau copped a bit, but then he seems more deserving IMO - he seemed like one at the start of a very promising career and had hardly even dipped his toe in. I don't recall the grief Luatua copped, his situation seems a fair bit more in line with Sopoaga though.
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@bones Steve Hansen gave Luatua a good serve - and well deserved it was too.
I think the NZRU kyboshed a Blues contract for Piutau, which is a starting point for the sort of spite I'm recommending.
I doubt I've given everyone who deserved it a serve on here, but I've certainly thought it. I sent a decent volley after Colin Slade - I don't like losing first fives.
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@nepia said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@majorrage I'm not sure why you targeted this thread at PIs,
Did you see my second post? I answered this quite clearly - not about targeting, they are just in focus at the moment.
@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
You are picking and choosing quotes from different people to make one point, so hardly a fair comparison. For what it's worth here's my view on each.
Cruden - 6 years an AB, firstly behind Carter, then Barrett. During which time the AB coaches played around with Slade and Sopoaga as well. I never doubted his drive for the AB's and I think when he started to doubt it, he jumped ship.
TKB - Was always a clear number 2, and then became a clear number 3. Never doubted his commitment for the AB's and was admittedly surprised when he jumped.
Luatua - He couldn't hold form. He was immense breakout and then average for next 2. As he was coming back into power, he realised he'd prefer to take the money and this created the scuffle with Hansen as they obviously didn't have any inclination this was coming
Sopoaga - I've written all I need to here.Reality is that this is a thread to discuss if the AB's are the pinnacle, or just a stepping stone to larger contracts ashore. The PI players are naturally in focus just due to the RLWC shenanigans.
I'm not saying all PI players aren't really in it - that would be disrespectful to a hell of a lot of people and not my scene. Just like I'm not saying all European/Maori players see the AB's as the pinnacle.
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I'm not sure why Piatau would be getting any criticism. Was he supposed to commit completely to NZ and then get the same treatment that Jane and Dagg got with the 2015 RWC selection? No one owes anyone anything.
We care if they have a place in the squad and don't care if they don't. Sopoaga is going to cop it, Fekitoa and Taminaivalu are not.
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@rotated said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I'm not sure why Piatau would be getting any criticism. Was he supposed to commit completely to NZ and then get the same treatment that Jane and Dagg got with the 2015 RWC selection? No one owes anyone anything.
He copped it from the coaches as they had a verbal agreement. The reporting suggested he'd signed but not returned the contract, and then a telephone number arrived from Europe. It blindsided NZRU and the ABs, and they were super pissed about it.
I don't blame him, but you're going to cop heat if you play hardball like that. I suspect that loss of trust was what kept him out of teh ABs and had them militate against him.
As a Blues fan, I'd love Piutau and Toeava still playing for us. So much of our talent winds up overseas or at other franchises
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Perhaps another thing that has contributed to the criticism levelled at Sopoaga is the philosophical view we have of first-fives in this country thanks to the Beaver episode.
We realise that an injury or two could see a squadie become our national hero. Perhaps the country feels that Sopoga ought to stick around because he's only one strained Barrett Achilles away from leading us to victory in the 2019 RWC final.
I'm sure it's tougher for Sopoaga to take that view when a few million bucks are waved in front of him.
