Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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@hooroo said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
Or Hayman
Or Lucky Luke. I remember when we lost Ridge and Gallagher in the space of weeks. First and second choice 15s gooone
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@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
Are you sure you're quoting the same people's opinions? Are the same people saying x about Luatua but a about Sopoaga?
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@tim Yeah I recall Piutau copped a bit, but then he seems more deserving IMO - he seemed like one at the start of a very promising career and had hardly even dipped his toe in. I don't recall the grief Luatua copped, his situation seems a fair bit more in line with Sopoaga though.
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@bones Steve Hansen gave Luatua a good serve - and well deserved it was too.
I think the NZRU kyboshed a Blues contract for Piutau, which is a starting point for the sort of spite I'm recommending.
I doubt I've given everyone who deserved it a serve on here, but I've certainly thought it. I sent a decent volley after Colin Slade - I don't like losing first fives.
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@nepia said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@majorrage I'm not sure why you targeted this thread at PIs,
Did you see my second post? I answered this quite clearly - not about targeting, they are just in focus at the moment.
@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
You are picking and choosing quotes from different people to make one point, so hardly a fair comparison. For what it's worth here's my view on each.
Cruden - 6 years an AB, firstly behind Carter, then Barrett. During which time the AB coaches played around with Slade and Sopoaga as well. I never doubted his drive for the AB's and I think when he started to doubt it, he jumped ship.
TKB - Was always a clear number 2, and then became a clear number 3. Never doubted his commitment for the AB's and was admittedly surprised when he jumped.
Luatua - He couldn't hold form. He was immense breakout and then average for next 2. As he was coming back into power, he realised he'd prefer to take the money and this created the scuffle with Hansen as they obviously didn't have any inclination this was coming
Sopoaga - I've written all I need to here.Reality is that this is a thread to discuss if the AB's are the pinnacle, or just a stepping stone to larger contracts ashore. The PI players are naturally in focus just due to the RLWC shenanigans.
I'm not saying all PI players aren't really in it - that would be disrespectful to a hell of a lot of people and not my scene. Just like I'm not saying all European/Maori players see the AB's as the pinnacle.
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I'm not sure why Piatau would be getting any criticism. Was he supposed to commit completely to NZ and then get the same treatment that Jane and Dagg got with the 2015 RWC selection? No one owes anyone anything.
We care if they have a place in the squad and don't care if they don't. Sopoaga is going to cop it, Fekitoa and Taminaivalu are not.
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@rotated said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I'm not sure why Piatau would be getting any criticism. Was he supposed to commit completely to NZ and then get the same treatment that Jane and Dagg got with the 2015 RWC selection? No one owes anyone anything.
He copped it from the coaches as they had a verbal agreement. The reporting suggested he'd signed but not returned the contract, and then a telephone number arrived from Europe. It blindsided NZRU and the ABs, and they were super pissed about it.
I don't blame him, but you're going to cop heat if you play hardball like that. I suspect that loss of trust was what kept him out of teh ABs and had them militate against him.
As a Blues fan, I'd love Piutau and Toeava still playing for us. So much of our talent winds up overseas or at other franchises
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Perhaps another thing that has contributed to the criticism levelled at Sopoaga is the philosophical view we have of first-fives in this country thanks to the Beaver episode.
We realise that an injury or two could see a squadie become our national hero. Perhaps the country feels that Sopoga ought to stick around because he's only one strained Barrett Achilles away from leading us to victory in the 2019 RWC final.
I'm sure it's tougher for Sopoaga to take that view when a few million bucks are waved in front of him.
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I think saying they don't owe anyone anything, not strictly true, although it works both ways.
Piutau for me, was a huge shock he left when he did, appeared on the cusp of a long AB career, but bailed for the money, albeit a lot of money, so was hard to understand.
Luatua and to a lesser extent, Faumuina and Sopoaga I wasn't as surprised they left when they did.
It happens though, and until the NH rugby realizes while they are eroding our depth they are in turn blocking the development of thiers (and someone runs out of money) nothing will change.
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@taniwharugby said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I think saying they don't owe anyone anything, not strictly true, although it works both ways.
Piutau for me, was a huge shock he left when he did, appeared on the cusp of a long AB career, but bailed for the money, albeit a lot of money, so was hard to understand.
Luatua and to a lesser extent, Faumuina and Sopoaga I wasn't as surprised they left when they did.
It happens though, and until the NH rugby realizes while they are eroding our depth they are in turn blocking the development of thiers (and someone runs out of money) nothing will change.
Their club structure is a big part of the problem, their lack of centralised management means that club owners have no motivation to develop local talent. They just want the best talent their money can buy
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Rugby, like all professional sports now, is a business so I won’t criticise any player who wants to maximise their earning potential offshore. That doesn’t mean we have to like all these players leaving NZ but that is just a fact of life. Careers can be cut short by injury or your income significantly reduced by the whims of the AB selectors. NZR will always be fighting against the tide because they can’t match the salaries offered in Europe or Japan. Not every player can be on a $1M contract so NZR’s aim has to be to retain more ABs than they lose. Easier said than done.
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i would argue that both luatua and sopoaga were a little hard done by by the selectors at times, and that would have played a part in their decisions to leave. likewise someone like nick evans back then. if you feel like you've done enough to get selected and aren't, or improved what the selectors have asked you to improve and still not been picked, or have done all you can and still not quite made it, then you're much more likely to cash in.
piutau never had that as a mitigating factor.
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@taniwharugby said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Piutau for me, was a huge shock he left when he did, appeared on the cusp of a long AB career, but bailed for the money, albeit a lot of money, so was hard to understand.
Yeah, I thought he would have a career like Mils and probably could have.
Slightly off topic but I guess that if you are perceived as a traitor the road to guest appearances and commentating goes out the window in NZ. Obviously being a dickhead doesn't rule it out though, we have had plenty of those.
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I think Piutau could feel a little hard done by - he never put a foot wrong in the ABs and couldnt nail down a starting spot in 2+ seasons (meanwhile Mils was a starter in his first season in Black).
Unfortunately for Piutau his 2 AB seasons before he made his decision (2013-14) coincided with peak Julian Savea.
The irony is I think Piutau would have passed Savea in 2015/16 given Savea's form (if Piutau had signed an extension at the end of 2014).
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@bovidae yeah. You come home take a look at your baby's smile and I'd imagine the concept of who you're most loyal to is a straight forward one.
But sure, like many things in the world it's just not the way it used to be - loyalty to NZ rugby that is.
