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If interested, this podcast by Malcolm Gladwell in his Revisionist History series documents the recent history of the US border and context as to how it the border policies have changed.
It's about 20 odd minutes and while not offering solutions it does enlighten some of the changes to immigration and why. It's not a bad historical insight about the man, General Chapman who changed border enforcement.
"Good fences make good neighbors. Or maybe not."
General Leonard Chapman guided the Marines Corp through some of the most difficult years in its history. He was brilliant, organized, decisive and indefatigable. Then he turned his attention to the America’s immigration crisis. You think you want effective leadership? Be careful what you wish for.
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Thee only way kids are seperated form parents is if
1/ They do not use a proper port of entry, i.e sneak across the border.
2/ The when caught they claim asylum. The vast majority of which are bogus.
3/ If one of these 3 conditions occur the child is taken
i) Cannot verify any relationship between the child and adult (important to stop sex traffickers)
ii) When the US verifies that the child is at risk from the adult (clearly bad)
iii) The adult is referred for criminal felony prosecution. (serious crime)And they are not mistreated, the US taxpayer spends over $35000 per kid per year on these minors. That is more than alot of kids in the US live on.
Bear in mind that at any stage, the supposed family unit could just reverse course and go back from where they came.. as a family unit. They are CHOOSING to be separated. get caught at the border trying o sneak in... go back.. or don't claim asylum... or have documents showing you are the parents... you will keep your kids.
These smugglers know that kids have been a ticket to easy US access. Since 2012 when Obama dropped the ball... 'family units' illegally entering increased by 400% often the same child used more than once in different 'family units'...If just anyone can claim asylum and be released, never to come back to face the judges assessment.. how is that not an open border?
It blows my mind that people are being sucked in by all of this left wing spin. Want to not get separated from your kids.. use one of the 25 ports of entry along the border. Claim asylum there.. and you wont be separated. Dont sneak across.
Pretty bloody simple. -
Kids in cages, oh noes!!
This is just the latest manufactured outrage.
It was only a couple weeks ago that journalists tweeted their horror and disgust at photos of kids in cages, using them as an example of the worst humanitarian crisis in American history!!! Then, when informed that pics were actually from 2014 and the Obama administration, they suddenly deleted them. If those kids were in Hope & Change cages, that made ALL the difference in the world, see. They weren’t separated from their families; they were getting free wifi in Barack’s Holiday Camp. Yay!!
Now it’s Big Time Important News again, almost precisely at the moment that the Rooskie investigation pivots to an investigation of the FBI and James Comey. Whoops, better turn the spotlight somewhere else, and pretend Obama-era non-scandals are now the end of the world and humanity itself, basically Auschwitz, ‘cos, well, obviously, Drumpf.
Entirely predictable.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in US Politics:
@Donsteppa
And they are not mistreated, the US taxpayer spends over $35000 per kid per year on these minors. That is more than alot of kids in the US live on.They could spend less without mistreatment - and also without separating families.
If just anyone can claim asylum and be released, never to come back to face the judges assessment.. how is that not an open border?
I'm not advocating that.
Bear in mind that at any stage, the supposed family unit could just reverse course and go back from where they came.. as a family unit. They are CHOOSING to be separated. get caught at the border trying o sneak in... go back.. or don't claim asylum... or have documents showing you are the parents... you will keep your kids.
These smugglers know that kids have been a ticket to easy US access. Since 2012 when Obama dropped the ball... 'family units' illegally entering increased by 400% often the same child used more than once in different 'family units'...So why they are choosing to trying to sneak in? In addition to my initial bleeding heart liberal solutions of:
- Yes, they could take personal responsibility and not turn up, but they have turned up and here we are.
- Harsh justice for scum of the earth people smugglers/traffickers who will tell people what they want to hear, charge huge sums of money in the process, and deliver only misery.
.... What's the incentive to try and sneak across illegally? The US isn't renowned for substantive long term welfare benefits in reward for illegal border crossings. From a quick Google of Texas: https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12/14/lawmakers-go-easy-employers-undocumented-workers/
Business interests rely on undocumented immigrant workers, while pro-immigrant activists fight to protect the labor rights of those facing abuse and exploitation. When the Chamber of Commerce and the American Civil Liberties Union are on the same side of an issue at the Capitol, they’re hard to beat.
The workers are everywhere: at construction sites, behind the kitchen doors of popular restaurants, in the fields and — when the lights go out — emptying the trash and cleaning the toilets in office buildings and shopping centers.
“In any company, store or wherever you go, you have to present a Social Security number and a permanent resident ID,” Chunco said in his native Spanish. “What they want is to have something in which you identify yourself and that you do the work. They don’t know or care how you got it.”
“We know what an important part immigrant labor plays in Texas, and to suddenly wipe out large sectors ... would have a devastating impact on the Texas economy. We need immigrant labor to do those tasks where not enough Americans will.” — Bill Hammond, Texas Association of Business
Undocumented immigrants also find work as independent contractors — a common tactic in construction but by no means unique to that industry. “The employer does not have an obligation to check the work authorization of someone that they engage as an independent contractor,” Beardall explained. Hiring undocumented workers as independent contractors, or misclassifying them as contractors, he said, “not only enables you to evade overtime laws and minimum wage laws and workers comp but also holds at arm’s length any knowledge you’re supposed to check into about their immigration status.”
Authorities the world over remove illegal workers when they find them. But making sure the same employer doesn't just find the next lot of illegal workers is the big one - otherwise the cycle just gets perpetuated with new illegal crossings. So I'd suggest more of these (alongside more trouble for people smugglers, and people choosing to not cross the border in the first place):
... I think the illegal border crossings would be much more likely to dry up. And - without family separation needed as a supposed deterrent.
Regarding:
Since 2012 when Obama dropped the ball...
I won't argue that, I can't find the image link to embed it, but the I-9 fines graph and the Administrative arrests graph in https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/19/us/ice-raid-meat-supplier-fresh-mark/index.html show the drop off.
Looks like a blind eye has been turned - but you can turn that around without needing or justifying family separation from illegal entry: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-face-republicans-upset-over-border-policy-n884816?icid=recommended
WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump told House Republicans Tuesday night that he is "1,000 percent" with them as GOP leaders try to pass a sprawling immigration bill, and that he wants to see an end to his policy of separating undocumented children from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border. "We gotta take care of separation," Trump said, according to people who were in the closed-door meeting in the basement of the Capitol. "It's too nasty."
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@donsteppa said in US Politics:
They could spend less without mistreatment - and also without separating families.
How exactly? Mistreatment? How? And what is your proof they are separating families? That is kinda the issue these so called called families cannot prove they are families at all.
If just anyone can claim asylum and be released, never to come back to face the judges assessment.. how is that not an open border?
I'm not advocating that.
Yes you are, you just don't seem top realise it. How do they not seperate the kids from adults and maintain border security? Trump is already trying to get law changes, but that doesnt seem to placate the mob.
So why they are choosing to trying to sneak in? In addition to my initial bleeding heart liberal solutions of:
- Yes, they could take personal responsibility and not turn up, but they have turned up and here we are.
- Harsh justice for scum of the earth people smugglers/traffickers who will tell people what they want to hear, charge huge sums of money in the process, and deliver only misery.
.... What's the incentive to try and sneak across illegally? The US isn't renowned for substantive long term welfare benefits in reward for illegal border crossings. From a quick Google of Texas: https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12/14/lawmakers-go-easy-employers-undocumented-workers/
Because they are not actually families maybe? Because a adult is a multiple time illegal immigrant and therefore faces felony charges? An adult is a convicted felon? Because Obama made it that if you come with a minor, you get into the US easier than if you are a adult on their own?
If you are a true asylum seeker looking to save your family... you have proof you are a family and use the border crossingsBusiness interests rely on undocumented immigrant workers, while pro-immigrant activists fight to protect the labor rights of those facing abuse and exploitation. When the Chamber of Commerce and the American Civil Liberties Union are on the same side of an issue at the Capitol, they’re hard to beat.
Hence why the never Trumpers are also virtue signalling and lying, not out of empathy.... but greed.
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How exactly? Mistreatment? How? And what is your proof they are separating families? That is kinda the issue these so called called families cannot prove they are families at all.
I think we've crossed purposes there - I've not been as clear as I should. I was trying to note and acknowledge/agree with your comment of spending US$35k as not a bad figure. Still don't need to separate the families - i.e. $30k and keeping them together on the face of it could be good too...
Re: "And what is your proof they are separating families?" I' not trying to prove anything - I'm assuming that members of the White House aren't making the comments that they are on fake news.
Yes you are, you just don't seem top realise it. How do they not seperate the kids from adults and maintain border security? Trump is already trying to get law changes, but that doesnt seem to placate the mob.
There's plenty of examples of refugee camps, holding camps - whatever terms you want to use - where families can stay together.
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@donsteppa said in US Politics:
How exactly? Mistreatment? How? And what is your proof they are separating families? That is kinda the issue these so called called families cannot prove they are families at all.
I think we've crossed purposes there - I've not been as clear as I should. I was trying to note and acknowledge/agree with your comment of spending US$35k as not a bad figure. Still don't need to separate the families - i.e. $30k and keeping them together on the face of it could be good too...
Re: "And what is your proof they are separating families?" I' not trying to prove anything - I'm assuming that members of the White House aren't making the comments that they are on fake news.
Yes you are, you just don't seem top realise it. How do they not seperate the kids from adults and maintain border security? Trump is already trying to get law changes, but that doesnt seem to placate the mob.
There's plenty of examples of refugee camps, holding camps - whatever terms you want to use - where families can stay together.
Yes and they can in the U.S. southern border. If they are actually families, use a border crossing and aren't felons. Which of those criteria do you think is unfair?
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@baron-silas-greenback I read the separation as happening regardless of whether they "are actually families", triggered automatically by the crossing away from the usual points as requiring prosecution.... though where they aren't genuine families, in those cases something hellish is going on beyond issues of (non)family seperation.
The Attorney General directed United States Attorneys on the Southwest Border to prosecute all amenable adults who illegally enter the country, including those accompanied by their children, for 8 U.S.C. § 1325(a), illegal entry. Children whose parents are referred for prosecution will be placed with the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR). The following are Frequently Asked Questions regarding Zero Tolerance Immigration Prosecutions.
Why Are Parents Being Separated From Their Children?
The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) may separate a parent or legal guardian from his or her child for several reasons, including situations where DHS cannot ascertain the parental relationship, when DHS determines that a child may be at risk with the presumed parent or legal guardian, or if a parent or legal guardian is referred for criminal prosecution, including for illegal entry.
Perhaps you can have "heart and security":
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If you rob a 7/11 or steal a car or assault somebody and get caught in America, unbelievably the courts there 1) don’t let you off ‘cos you got a child; and 2) don’t let you bring your kids and family into prison to live with you. Totally deplorable the way they treat criminals who break the law, at least, ever since Trump became president and cruelty took over. The authorities there take their kids and put them into foster care, separating families. It really is just like Nazi Germany..
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Well, well, welll. And the name on the byline, of all people, is Michael Isikoff. The winds of change...
Obama cyber chief confirms 'stand down' order against Russian cyberattacks in summer 2016
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Even the NYT — not exactly known as card-carrying members of the DJT Fan Club — admits this literally Nazi Germany concentration camp policy had been going on for 22 years, since the Clinton adminstration:
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O in ‘14. “Don’t send your kids... if they make it, we’ll send them back.”
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So. Entirely. Predictable.
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Even the leftist politically-correct fact-checking “service” Snopes (aka a woman and her cat) couldn’t wiggle out of this one.
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This happened on Obama’s watch, before Drumpf even announced his candidacy for POTUS.
Do you remember media and politicians gnashing about it, crying on TV, and claiming the Gestapo was running Amerikkka? No? Me neither. But never forget, Drumpf is uniquely awful.
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@salacious-crumb said in US Politics:
This happened on Obama’s watch
Yes, I believe you have mentioned that already
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Time magazine published a cover story with pic of small girl crying, Photoshopped to make her look like she’s confronting Drumpf.
Didn’t take a day for border agents and the father of the child to tell reporters the child was NEVER separated from her parents; she was crying ‘cos, well, as anybody who has children would know, sometimes little kids cry for the dumbest reasons imaginable.
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My response to this Time front cover furore is a big fat 'so what'?
The picture was trying to portray a real 'issue'' , the fact the child wasn't separated isnt really that relevant. The underlying point the left wing media is trying to make is still the same.
The only real impact that the new facts show is that it gives Trump supporters something to latch on to as a counter narrative, and it will be very effective.The whole child seperation thing has been a left wing political beat up, and the response is going to a right wing beat up. It is a battle of dishonest narratives.
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If one was very cynical you could argue that the Democrats wouldn't give two fucks if this wasnt a future and vital voter base. I hope that isn't true, but who knows with these morally corrupt pigs.
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