Censorship and the Mosque Shooting
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And the left and reasonable aren't entirely mutually exclusive. Although I fully agree a massive proportion have absolutely gone off their collective rockers. Don't lets start losing that nuance we are trying to retain in all of this stuff.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
Really you guys? No offense but this is entirely predictable and will only get worse in the years to come. The fact you are shocked just shows you really havent believed those of us warning about increased censorship.
Got to admit I'm pretty aware of the potential censorship consequences but this Peterson ban has me rattled. This isn't just idiocy. It's dangerous. Want to ensure more terrorist attacks? Just follow this blueprint.
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It's some amazing advertising for the book.
I tried reading a borrowed copy of the book about six months ago and put it down after the first chapter. It bored me to tears. However, I just purchased a copy from Unity books to put back on the bedside table. Thought $40 was a bit steep but it's worth it.
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@Paekakboyz any headlines that say Peterson book banned in nz after shooting will be processed by tens of millions of people.
Therefore NZ equals hobbit and book banning. Please understand how little significance nz has in the world
It's as stupid as the idea of not saying tarrants name. Fucken ridiculous, as stupid as saying the n word, which makes everyone think of the word.
Secondary issues for an incident involving one man for a duration of 30 minutes.
Half an hour of cuntery by one guy and we have to fawn about and change and censor and hide everything. Fucken infantile!
Edit, sorry Paekok, didn't aim my rant at you, I'm just sick of the nannying around this week. I swear there are moments behind closed doors where politicians and media execs Express their glee that this came along in their time in charge
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@Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
It's some amazing advertising for the book.
I tried reading a borrowed copy of the book about six months ago and put it down after the first chapter. It bored me to tears. However, I just purchased a copy from Unity books to put back on the bedside table. Thought $40 was a bit steep but it's worth it.
Good on ya. Maybe worth trying the audiobook. He's got a very engaging voice. Can be difficult in text some of what he talks about. I've talked to so many people now that have pulled themselves back fron the brink because of his message, the way I see it the more people that know it and can pass it on the better chance society has.
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[edit - moved from another thread]
Can somebody confirm...?
Reading online that Petersen’s “12 Rules” book has been removed from all Whitcoull’s because of the Christchurch massacre.
Seriously,can anybody confirm, or is this just a pathetic joke?
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EDit: Update: I just saw on the other thread that it is indeed true. Utterly pathetic overreaction. This is mind-manipulation.
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Looks like thought-crime has hit NZ.
Quite common in the UK where referring to a trans person by the wrong pronoun gets you investigated and interviewed by the police for a hate crime. Funnily enough, the same police say they can't do anything about the current knife crime epidemic here as they don't have enough resources.
The Cambridge Uni thing is unsurprisng and it's probably because of the books views on male/female differences. Oxford University recently stopped former Trump Press sec & Breibart News' Steve Bannon talking to media and Pol Sci students as he "was connected to right-wing news sources"
Personally. I blame Thatcher.
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I tried to read the book, it’s fucking boring.
Surely whitcoulls as a private enterprise have the right to sell (or not sell) whatever stock they please?
It’s still easy to get in NZ for anyone with internet and a credit card so I don’t see why it’s such a big issue? If you want the book go and buy it somewhere else.
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@SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
I tried to read the book, it’s fucking boring.
I haven't read it. Not interested in it. The quality isn't the reason it was removed
@SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
Surely whitcoulls as a private enterprise have the right to sell (or not sell) whatever stock they please?
Of course. Do you think people are saying they don't have the right?
People have the right to ridicule that decision
@SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
It’s still easy to get in NZ for anyone with internet and a credit card so I don’t see why it’s such a big issue? If you want the book go and buy it somewhere else.
What is being discussed is the direction the culture is moving. We're moving to a culture where a growing number of people are intolerant of hearing other ideas.
Corporate culture generally plays it as safe as possible. This company has made the calculation that the culture is on the side of the censors. They are happy to take the backlash from people who think a variety of ideas should be heard, to appease the people that only want their ideas heard.
I hope other companies come to a different conclusion. So yes, complaining loudly about this is important.
Those that want something as benign as this censored are using the emotion of a tragedy to censor things they don't like. It's worth repeating that Peterson is despised by people like the shooter.
Those pushing for the censorship would've banned his before the shooting if they could have. They have manipulated a tragedy to get their political goal. It's gross opportunism.People across the political spectrum should be pushing back. Regardless of if they like JP or think he's boring. This is not the way a mature and confident culture should act.
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@SammyC It's their right of course but the message that is being sent here is that Peterson's words are being connected to the shooting.
This will be used forever now when describing Dr Peterson ("Controversial speaker Jordan Peterson, whose book '12 rules for life' was banned in NZ in the wake of the Chrischurch mosque massacre").
That matter's for 2 reasons.
Those who have read the book or follow Peterson will be regarded as racists or whatever by the general public creating significant division in society (From personal experience I have a semi well known family member currently calling for attacks on me online from his followers and this is part of that ammo)
Secondly, of all the voices out there at the moment this guy has a proven track record of de-radicalising people that have been going the way that this shooter has. There is a hell of a lot of victimisation and resentment out there and this just adds to it.
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@Rembrandt said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
@SammyC It's their right of course but the message that is being sent here is that Peterson's words are being connected to the shooting.
This will be used forever now when describing Dr Peterson ("Controversial speaker Jordan Peterson, whose book '12 rules for life' was banned in NZ in the wake of the Chrischurch mosque massacre").
That matter's for 2 reasons.
Those who have read the book or follow Peterson will be regarded as racists or whatever by the general public creating significant division in society (From personal experience I have a semi well known family member currently calling for attacks on me online from his followers and this is part of that ammo)
Secondly, of all the voices out there at the moment this guy has a proven track record of de-radicalising people that have been going the way that this shooter has. There is a hell of a lot of victimisation and resentment out there and this just adds to it.
Fair enough... although the book isn’t “banned in New Zealand” is it? One retailer has decided to stop selling it.
I understand the issue you guys have, I just don’t think the division is as great as you are making out. There’s extreme ideas on both sides but I think the majority of society is pretty ambivalent to this kind of stuff.
To counter your personal experience, I have a Saturday morning running group with 6-8 guys... a couple are big Peterson supporters (that’s who lent me the book) and some others are labour/ greens voters. We all get along fine and are great mates regardless. In my experience it’s only a small minority on either side that make such a big deal out of this stuff.
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@SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
@Rembrandt said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
@SammyC It's their right of course but the message that is being sent here is that Peterson's words are being connected to the shooting.
This will be used forever now when describing Dr Peterson ("Controversial speaker Jordan Peterson, whose book '12 rules for life' was banned in NZ in the wake of the Chrischurch mosque massacre").
That matter's for 2 reasons.
Those who have read the book or follow Peterson will be regarded as racists or whatever by the general public creating significant division in society (From personal experience I have a semi well known family member currently calling for attacks on me online from his followers and this is part of that ammo)
Secondly, of all the voices out there at the moment this guy has a proven track record of de-radicalising people that have been going the way that this shooter has. There is a hell of a lot of victimisation and resentment out there and this just adds to it.
Fair enough... although the book isn’t “banned in New Zealand” is it? One retailer has decided to stop selling it.
I understand the issue you guys have, I just don’t think the division is as great as you are making out. There’s extreme ideas on both sides but I think the majority of society is pretty ambivalent to this kind of stuff.
To counter your personal experience, I have a Saturday morning running group with 6-8 guys... a couple are big Peterson supporters (that’s who lent me the book) and some others are labour/ greens voters. We all get along fine and are great mates regardless. In my experience it’s only a small minority on either side that make such a big deal out of this stuff.
I agree Sammy. NZ doesn't suffer the extremes of idealism that other countries, such as the US do right now. Look at the Fern, there are a range of view points but for the most part we all conduct ourselves with a degree of mutual respect (most of the time ). This was a commercial decision from Whitcoulls. It is one thing for a private business to make a decision like this, and they are well within their rights to do so. It is another thing entirely if a civil organisation banned the book. No civil rights or freedom of speech have been trampled here
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@SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
I understand the issue you guys have, I just don’t think the division is as great as you are making out. There’s extreme ideas on both sides but I think the majority of society is pretty ambivalent to this kind of stuff.
I'm not going to speak for others , but I have not claimed there is a big division. What I am discussing is the principle.
Open political discourse, tolerance of other opinions, freedom of speech, liberalism (using the word correctly) are some of the fundamental concepts that have helped NZ become a pretty good country (not always applied well.. and we are in one of those times)
20 years ago it would have been a few nutters on the right trying to ban a book they didn't like (won't someone think of the children!)
However the left wing civil libertarians would have pushed back hard. The wider culture would generally side with them. Problem solved.Where the fuck are the left wing civil libertarians now?? I miss them.
Your last sentence about ambivalence is really important. I agree, most people are ambivalent. I think it's a fundamental problem with the culture when people don't stand up for liberal principles.
Instead too many seem to care about what 'side' someone is on before applying principles..Sure, 1 book in 1 store is not important
What about 2 stores? 3 stores? 10? All stores? More books? Fuck that, I would rather stick to some principles right now.
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@SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
@Rembrandt said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
@SammyC It's their right of course but the message that is being sent here is that Peterson's words are being connected to the shooting.
This will be used forever now when describing Dr Peterson ("Controversial speaker Jordan Peterson, whose book '12 rules for life' was banned in NZ in the wake of the Chrischurch mosque massacre").
That matter's for 2 reasons.
Those who have read the book or follow Peterson will be regarded as racists or whatever by the general public creating significant division in society (From personal experience I have a semi well known family member currently calling for attacks on me online from his followers and this is part of that ammo)
Secondly, of all the voices out there at the moment this guy has a proven track record of de-radicalising people that have been going the way that this shooter has. There is a hell of a lot of victimisation and resentment out there and this just adds to it.
Fair enough... although the book isn’t “banned in New Zealand” is it? One retailer has decided to stop selling it.
Yes but that is only relevant if the reporting is accurate, which it won't be. The headline "Banned in NZ because of the Christchurch mosque massacre". Is true but a misrepresentation for anyone in the know.
I understand the issue you guys have, I just don’t think the division is as great as you are making out.
You are right for the majority of normal society this is a non issue right now. Its not the majority I'm concerned with urgently, its the people on the fringes, the drug fucked violent folk who are looking to 'smash' this shooter and anyone who supports him, they're more than happy being told who their violence should be directed towards. It's also those folk holding on in life by their fingertips who could benefit from Petersons message which could very well stop them from directing violence & resentment inwards or outwards onto others.
The majority of society will become increasingly involved if mature nuanced conversations aren't had to help prevent these attrocities from recurring and there is very little sign of that, seems we are content in ticking off the goals the shooter had in his manifesto instead.
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@Duluth said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
We're moving to a culture where a growing number of people are intolerant of hearing other ideas.
They need to be told of the dangers The newspapers who exposed the child sex scandal in the north of England, were subjected to sustained attacks and boycott campaigns as certain virtue-signalling groups saw the expose as"Islamophobic"
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@canefan said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:
I agree Sammy. NZ doesn't suffer the extremes of idealism that other countries, such as the US do right now. Look at the Fern, there are a range of view points but for the most part we all conduct ourselves with a degree of mutual respect (most of the time ). This was a commercial decision from Whitcoulls. It is one thing for a private business to make a decision like this, and they are well within their rights to do so. It is another thing entirely if a civil organisation banned the book. No civil rights or freedom of speech have been trampled here
I don’t agree. This whole episode proves NZ is no different to anywhere else.
Smaller population just means smaller number of voices.