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@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@JC said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Although there is truth in the above, would you be happy to stand on a street corner and tell all black people their going to hell because they are black? Which is Crucial's point?
Where does it say that in the Bible?
Doesn't, never said it did, not the point.
Then it’s a straw man. It is the point. A man has said that the Bible, which he believes to be the word of his god, warns that certain categories of people will go to hell if they don’t repent. His Bible really does say that, so his beliefs aren’t random or arbitrary. All the things he listed are categorised as mortal sins (i.e. if you die unshriven of those sins, your soul goes to hell), there is no question of that.
Of course the majority of Christians have moved past that, along with most of society, but his sect is not obliged to move in step along with, say, the Church of England, and us suggesting it should is telling people what is acceptable to believe. We should be very, very careful of that, don’t you think?
As to your point about racism, I f he said that black people were equally at risk of such a fate, he would not be able to rely on the backing of his Bible, as he can with me being a drunk, or my good buddy being gay. You can rightly point out that both stances are prejudiced, but one has the backing of, in IF’s belief, “indisputable fact” because it’s in the Bible, while the other doesn’t. They are not the same.
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@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Although there is truth in the above, would you be happy to stand on a street corner and tell all black people their going to hell because they are black? Which is Crucial's point?
While I get your point, @JC has responded in a much more articulate manner than I ever could.
To answer the question, no I wouldn't. But if I did, I'm unsure what religion I'd be espousing and I can't imagine any black people would feel unworthy if society due to the rantings of some funny sounding guy with a rat's tail.
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@JC said in The Folau Factor:
Then it’s a straw man. It is the point. A man has said that the Bible, which he believes to be the word of his god, warns that certain categories of people will go to hell if they don’t repent. His Bible really does say that, so his beliefs aren’t random or arbitrary. All the things he listed are categorised as mortal sins (i.e. if you die unshriven of those sins, your soul goes to hell), there is no question of that.
No, it's not. Folau is having a pop at a section of society based on his beliefs of a book. Nobody is arguing that. People are arguing as to whether or not saying people are going to hell is even an insult. I'm not buying that.
Of course the majority of Christians have moved past that, along with most of society, but his sect is not obliged to move in step along with, say, the Church of England, and us suggesting it should is telling people what is acceptable to believe. We should be very, very careful of that, don’t you think?
I think everybody has a right to think what they want and nobody is obliged to do anything to step in to line so to speak. It's why many people like me are torn in this argument. The fact is that it IS A corporate game now. That same corporate game which has made Folau a global superstar & multi millionaire.
As to your point about racism, I f he said that black people were equally at risk of such a fate, he would not be able to rely on the backing of his Bible, as he can with me being a drunk, or my good buddy being gay. You can rightly point out that both stances are prejudiced, but one has the backing of, in IF’s belief, “indisputable fact” because it’s in the Bible, while the other doesn’t. They are not the same.
It's about pointing at a section of society, nothing more. Crucials point of using black people I think (in my view anyway) is to show this. I'm also fairly sure that the bible belt were quoting parts of the bible during the slave years to justify their actions.
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@MajorRage this corporate game cuts both ways. Rugby was attracted to Folau after being an origin and Oz player in league and then trying his hand at AFL. They no doubt saw marketing potential and an attractive commercial commodity.
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Wouldn't it be wonderful and Christian if
Folau won
Gave back all the money raised from crowdfunding
Paid his legal fees
Kept the money due to be paid under his playing contract
Donated the remainder to AR -
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@JC said in The Folau Factor:
Then it’s a straw man. It is the point. A man has said that the Bible, which he believes to be the word of his god, warns that certain categories of people will go to hell if they don’t repent. His Bible really does say that, so his beliefs aren’t random or arbitrary. All the things he listed are categorised as mortal sins (i.e. if you die unshriven of those sins, your soul goes to hell), there is no question of that.
No, it's not. Folau is having a pop at a section of society based on his beliefs of a book. Nobody is arguing that. People are arguing as to whether or not saying people are going to hell is even an insult. I'm not buying that.
Of course the majority of Christians have moved past that, along with most of society, but his sect is not obliged to move in step along with, say, the Church of England, and us suggesting it should is telling people what is acceptable to believe. We should be very, very careful of that, don’t you think?
I think everybody has a right to think what they want and nobody is obliged to do anything to step in to line so to speak. It's why many people like me are torn in this argument. The fact is that it IS A corporate game now. That same corporate game which has made Folau a global superstar & multi millionaire.
As to your point about racism, I f he said that black people were equally at risk of such a fate, he would not be able to rely on the backing of his Bible, as he can with me being a drunk, or my good buddy being gay. You can rightly point out that both stances are prejudiced, but one has the backing of, in IF’s belief, “indisputable fact” because it’s in the Bible, while the other doesn’t. They are not the same.
It's about pointing at a section of society, nothing more. Crucials point of using black people I think (in my view anyway) is to show this. I'm also fairly sure that the bible belt were quoting parts of the bible during the slave years to justify their actions.
I don’t think you get the point Major. Do you personally spend time with any born again evangelicals? Because if you do I doubt you would say that IF was “having a pop” at anybody. He’s not. He believes (and just to be clear, I don’t) that the Bible is amongst other things an instruction manual that tells everybody how hard it is to get to Heaven and what they need to avoid doing if they don’t want to go to Hell, which are both, it says, real places.
Further, he believes that his God demands that he takes responsibility for helping as many people as he can on the right path to the right place. He believes in “love” and “grace” in the biblical sense and doesn’t see his shepherding people (as he sees it) along a righteous path as an insult, but rather as a favour and a duty. It’s too simple to say he’s having a pop.
Now I think he’s deluded. But I don’t doubt that he believes, in good faith, that he doesn’t have a choice but to speak his truth. And he and his will also believe they are being persecuted for it. If you understand those two things you might realise why he and his supporters will take this all the way.
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@taniwharugby said in The Folau Factor:
They been talking about Maria alot on the Radio this morning...is a tough one for her, given she is entitled to support her husband, she has remained largely quiet on the subject, but since she shared his fundme thing, people have started asking about her views.
This is just the natural progression of the lynch mob.
First it was that he needed to be punished. Then someone calls for him to be fired. Shortly after someone wants to make sure he is never employed again (by trying to have the NRL confirm he would not be registered). Then it becomes about pulling down avenues of funding his right to a hearing in court. After two months the lynch mob are all a bit tired of all that and have figured that they can try and mess with his marriage as well.
It's the very essenence of virtue signalling. "How do I know if you are against bigoted hate speech if you only think he should have been suspended for a month, I think he should be unemployable and his marriage should disintergrate - I must care more".
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@rotated said in The Folau Factor:
@taniwharugby said in The Folau Factor:
They been talking about Maria alot on the Radio this morning...is a tough one for her, given she is entitled to support her husband, she has remained largely quiet on the subject, but since she shared his fundme thing, people have started asking about her views.
This is just the natural progression of the lynch mob.
First it was that he needed to be punished. Then someone calls for him to be fired. Shortly after someone wants to make sure he is never employed again (by trying to have the NRL confirm he would not be registered). Then it becomes about pulling down avenues of funding his right to a hearing in court. After two months the lynch mob are all a bit tired of all that and have figured that they can try and mess with his marriage as well.
It's the very essenence of virtue signalling. "How do I know if you are against bigoted hate speech if you only think he should have been suspended for a month, I think he should be unemployable and his marriage should disintergrate - I must care more".
Aaah! The good old 'let's tar every opposing opinion to mine with an extreme adage ploy'.
It has been a bit more subtle up to now but kudos for coming straight out with it. -
@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
800,000.00 now
Fucking hell I wake up & I see that Folau has raised A $1,250,000
He's essentially raised DOUBLE the money in HALF the time
I love it
PC Twitter and their Mobs have been played for fools
Exhibit A for the Streisand effect
If you can't raise money from the little guys why not upscale & get bigger donations from anonymous groups
I hope Izzy engages in a scorched strategy & breaks the back of Rugby Australia so they need a bailout from Federal Govn't/Twiggy Forrest
I live for this shit It's going be a ugly in the courtroom Disclosing all correspondence Leaks are going to come from everywhere Lets the games commence
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@Jaguares4real said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
800,000.00 now
Fucking hell I wake up & I see that Folau has raised A $1,250,000
He's essentially raised DOUBLE the money in HALF the time
I love it
PC Twitter and their Mobs have been played for fools
Exhibit A for the Streisand effect
If you can't raise money from the little guys why not upscale & get bigger donations from anonymous groups
I hope Izzy engages in a scorched strategy & breaks the back of Rugby Australia so they need a bailout from Federal Govn't/Twiggy Forrest
I live for this shit It's going be a ugly in the courtroom Disclosing all correspondence Leaks are going to come from everywhere Lets the games commence
If you really believe all that you wrote there rather than acting like a kid at a party with too much red cordial then I truly despair.
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@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
arty with too much red cordial th
Oh Cordial I believe it betcha
Where have I gone wrong factually....
Money raised in time frame, Streisand Effect, PC Twitter/Mobs
Raising Money from Groups not Joe Public,
Only thing that's subjective is his scorched earth strategy..........
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@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
@Rembrandt said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial So he didn't break terms of service. How about that.
https://www.acl.org.au/donate_izzy
$800,000.00 now
As I said (and you choose to ignore) the intention of those terms is not only clear but likely defendable in court. Go fund me is not something anyone is entitled to use, they can do because someone else created it.
You are reading supposed intention, I am reading the exact words. There is no crime or even an alleged crime so he in no way broke the terms. Its pretty black and white.
Others that support the cause have created their own platform now which is their right and freedom. No need to put any blame on the facilitators of go fund me.
I agree, Gofundme can do what they want but we can certainly call them out for their lies and hypocrisy. My concern is when the outrage mob goes then to the next level and targets processors, appstores and banks like they have with other alternative social media and patreon equivalents. Are these platforms or publishers. Following the outrage brigade logic you should have your power switched off for having the wrong opinions, I see this as a very bad thing for society.
Oh, and that score update as if it is a telethon is making you look rather like taking glee in the aspects of bigotry that undoubtedly contribute more to this cause than the political ones.
What me?!
In all seriousness though, it is true getting some glee from the crazies losing their mind over this..imagine thinking stopping gofundme was a victory.... There is certainly some bigotry with religious folk but there is also a hell of a lot of bigotry within the LGBT+ progressive movement. In the 90's and 2000's I criticised the religious right for their outrage mobs, pearl clutching, moral panics, demands for deplatforming and censorship..it seems to me and many others that the shoe now seems to be on the other foot. I don't support Folau's view on homosexuality being a sin but I do sympathise with concerns over the excesses of this movement, if these aren't reigned in I fear we really will see some horrific persecution of the gay community.
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@Jaguares4real I think where you’ve gone wrong is thinking that there will be any winners in this. There won’t, you’ll end up with someone who looks like a reactionary dinosaur and an organisation that looks managerially incompetent. And a load of lawyers buying new boats.
I think you’re also going wrong in using terms like scorched earth. There’s no real malice here, just two sides that believe they’re right. And as with many situations where principle is involved, both parties have said things on the spur of the moment that they probably now regret, as they’ve reduced the opportunities to walk back some of the rhetoric and enable a graceful resolution.
Everybody loses. I’m not sure how that’s particularly entertaining or edifying. But that’s just me.
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@JC said in The Folau Factor:
@Jaguares4real I think where you’ve gone wrong is thinking that there will be any winners in this. There won’t, you’ll end up with someone who looks like a reactionary dinosaur and an organisation that looks managerially incompetent. And a load of lawyers buying new boats.
I think you’re also going wrong in using terms like scorched earth. There’s no real malice here, just two sides that believe they’re right. And as with many situations where principle is involved, both parties have said things on the spur of the moment that they probably now regret, as they’ve reduced the opportunities to walk back some of the rhetoric and enable a graceful resolution.
Everybody loses. I’m not sure how that’s particularly entertaining or edifying. But that’s just me.
I largely agree JC
Whichever side wins, it;ll be a Pyrrhic victory
Don't get where Folau comes off being a reactionary dinosaur
He merely posted a few verses on Instagram & some sermons
You can be against LGBT "Agenda" & not be a bigot It's NOT an binary choice
Sure lawyers will win but that's Standard Practise for the bug cats in the industry
I agree there's no going back & that's why it's so interesting + exciting for me
Things will only get more ugly and nasty as time wears on
Wallabies are going to be in a mess for a while
Folau was a serious player for them & was idolised by many of the younger PI players along with Kepu
They'll be hurting & know they better keep their mouths shut
Keep their religion in the closet Oh the irony
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@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
Aaah! The good old 'let's tar every opposing opinion to mine with an extreme adage ploy'.
It has been a bit more subtle up to now but kudos for coming straight out with it.This isn't about the opinion of others it's the lengths fringe elements are willing to go to.
How else do you explain those admittedly fringe portions of the anti-Folau crowd now trying to publicly antagonize his wife over privately held opinions and beliefs that she hasn't aired publicly and privately supporting her husband? Pretty gross IMO.
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@barbarian said in The Folau Factor:
If Israel wins with damages (acknowledge it's a big if) then yes I will blame him. How could you not?
I see so many parallels between the Gawker vs Hulk Hogan case that sunk them. Inevitably, like Gawker, the ARU would blame the aggrieved party for having the means and will to bring sustained legal claims against them. But ultimately if the court does find in his favour it will be their hubris and disregard for due process that is what did them in.
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@rotated said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
Aaah! The good old 'let's tar every opposing opinion to mine with an extreme adage ploy'.
It has been a bit more subtle up to now but kudos for coming straight out with it.This isn't about the opinion of others it's the lengths fringe elements are willing to go to.
How else do you explain those admittedly fringe portions of the anti-Folau crowd now trying to publicly antagonize his wife over privately held opinions and beliefs that she hasn't aired publicly and privately supporting her husband? Pretty gross IMO.
I explain them as being dickheads. Quite simple.
However, not all (and probably not even a majority) of those not supporting/against Folau are no where near that extreme or fringe.
You need to stop looking at the extremes and accept that a lot of level headed people also think he is going too far.
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions