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@TeWaio I guess my only argument is how do we know if that 20% reduction is worth it or not? By the time it happens it maybe too late.
The frustration for me is we know fossil fuels are bad and are causing issues, we know agriculture, in particular meat and dairy contribute heavily. We have the technology and knowledge now to make dramatic changes in these areas which is highly likely going to slow warming. Some govts are dragging their heels and allowing corporate giants to dictate the message.
I haven't lived in NZ for a long time but from the outside it appears the govt is at least trying. The Australian Govt on the other hand seems to favour jobs, economic growth and wealth ahead of the environment and long term outcomes. The fact we allowed a giant coal mine in ecologically important bush so a foreign company can profit tells you were we are at here.
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@chimoaus said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@TeWaio I guess my only argument is how do we know if that 20% reduction is worth it or not? By the time it happens it maybe too late.
The frustration for me is we know fossil fuels are bad and are causing issues, we know agriculture, in particular meat and dairy contribute heavily. We have the technology and knowledge now to make dramatic changes in these areas which is highly likely going to slow warming. Some govts are dragging their heels and allowing corporate giants to dictate the message.
I haven't lived in NZ for a long time but from the outside it appears the govt is at least trying. The Australian Govt on the other hand seems to favour jobs, economic growth and wealth ahead of the environment and long term outcomes. The fact we allowed a giant coal mine in ecologically important bush so a foreign company can profit tells you were we are at here.
I think any govt that doesnt favour jobs, economic growth and wealth is failing not only it citizens but also its citizens abilities to provide solutions to issues. Govts never solve anything of importance. They wreck innovation far more than they help it. About the only time a got ever helps innovation is if they start a war.
I think it is incredibly sad that so many people see wealth economic growth and jobs as some sort of negative, and if not a negative then running counter to the environment.
The main issue is that the anti capitalists green movement refuse to see it as a personal movement, they do not seriously promote thier cause by leading by example, they preach with empty words and virtue signalling. A climate activist ranting at a rally holding an iPhone is no different to a pastor at a church giving a sermon with a porn magazine tucked under his arm.
The solutions the climate activists promote are personal though, they would really REALLY suck at a personal level, less jobs, rampant poverty and deprivation (if you think different then do some research on what happens without economic growth). The poorest in society would be put through hell, homeless, jobless, not being able to support families,diseases and health systems would collapse. Economic growth is and always has been vital.
The climate activists act like the govt will solve everything and somehow make the lack of economic growth just all work... they wont. They will make it worse. They refuse to make meaningful personal sacrifice as at an instinctual level they know it sucks., but they are just to indoctrinated to understand.
I dont believe their is much of a problem and every year I am proven right as prediction after prediction fails, and if I am proven wrong... what will happen.... nothing as bad as the solution that some people are proposing to avoid it.
As for the NZ govt, they are virtue signalling numpties who will harm the poor of NZ as they attempt to tank our economy , the ones that will be crushed by a strangled economy.... the young and the poor. The young think they have it tough now.... do some research on what is was like to have no money during the great depression and then magnify it.@chimoaus Ok.. so lets say we bow down before the activists and remove meat and dairy form our economy. What replaces it? We have a market for those products. Someone else will take the market share as it wont disappear, just be re-alloacted. So that wont help the environment on a global scale. But then what does NZ do to replace those jobs, industry and export earnings? Who do you rely on to invest and make these changes? The govt? Farmers? At whose cost? Is there a massive global demand for Kale and other veggies tat we could fill? And if so why would they not do it regardless of climate 'emergency'? Because it doesnt make economic sense! Anyone who knows anything about money knows you dont give away all your market share and customers to a competitor for free, then at great expense start up a new business with unknown demand. Yet that is what people are demanding at a national level in NZ.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback
Financial literacy should be a compulsory subject in High School.
Real world stuff.This way young people can make an informed and balanced decision.
The Green message is shoved down students' throats, so I don't see why students cannot be taught the real world consequences of economies failing. As it stands, in today's youth, GDP growth etc. are nothing more than abstract numbers for stuffy bankers and businessmen.
I suspect the Greenies won't be a fan of my proposal.
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Further: Sydney is supposed to reach 37C on Tuesday. Strong winds. Fire rating is "Catastrophic".
Second week of November.
Fark.
Edit: schools within 20 minutes of my house are closing Tuesday due to the danger. That level of caution is unprecedented.
I'm more than 30 minutes drive from the blue mountains where the worst fires have historically been.
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@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Further: Sydney is supposed to reach 37C on Tuesday. Strong winds. Fire rating is "Catastrophic".
Second week of November.
Fark.
Edit: schools within 20 minutes of my house are closing Tuesday due to the danger. That level of caution is unprecedented.
I'm more than 30 minutes drive from the blue mountains where the worst fires have historically been.
That sucks. I was going to like your post, but seemed inappropriate.
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@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It's fucking terrifying but some of the tech available is pretty cool.
That’s awful. My neighbor is a firefighter and might be heading over . He has been to fires in ACT and NSW before but since then he’s been trained to use drones to track the fires .
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@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
That’s awful. My neighbor is a firefighter and might be heading over . He has been to fires in ACT and NSW before but since then he’s been trained to use drones to track the fires .
It would be interesting to discuss the differences he sees in fires in NZ versus other places. Terrain would be a huge challenge over there I imagine - hence the drones.
I once had charcoaled gum leaves falling in my back yard from a particularly bad fire season in the Blue Mountains 7 or 8 years go, meaning the wind was blowing charred matter 25 kilometres over an elevation drop of roughly 150m at the nearest point.
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
That sucks. I was going to like your post, but seemed inappropriate.
It is sucky. For the Greater Sydney Basin itself to be affected - directly - is certainly something new in my 20ish years living here.
Fire map for NSW is here. Stupidly they don't cross the border into QLD on this map.
https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/fire-information/fires-near-me
If you click on a given fire you get its status and size. Some of the areas (in hectares) are mind blowing.
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@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It's fucking terrifying but some of the tech available is pretty cool.
What's astonishing is how cold it was yesterday riding in the Brindabellas.
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@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
What's astonishing is how cold it was yesterday riding in the Brindabellas.
The variability this Spring has been crazy. Days well into the 30s followed by high teens and anything in between. Hardly spring-like.
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@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@NTA I’ll ask him next time I see him . Being able to detect hotspots through smoke he said was huge for them .
Particularly for waterbombing. Even if you lose a $2000 drone, you can stop the fire in its tracks.
Funding for certain emergency services has been cut here the last few years and people are genuinely concerned about summer. NSW Fire and Rescue only has 1 purpose-built water bombing aircraft I think? Whereas in the USA they've got dozens and lease them out to us like those big-arse sky crane choppers.
Ex-military Hercs can also be converted and carry a fuckton of water as well as this 737 they were trialling earlier this year - how fucking low down is this crazy US pilot?
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@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
this 737 they were trialling earlier this year - how fucking low down is this crazy US pilot?
He's just having fun - and I think that I want his job.
These might also help:
Owesome machine. Don't even wait to fill up with water again - water "landing" scoops up to fill, apply power, dump on fire, repeat.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback
The question is, can we have year on year growth and not fuck over the planet for future generations. If we have 2-3% growth in GDP and population every year the demand for stuff will continue to rise, where do all of these resources come from and where do all these people go.GDP IMO is a poor barometer on the well being of humans and the environment. What metric do you use to judge how well a society is doing? Who has the biggest house? who has the most iphones per capita? who consumes the most resources and produces the most stuff?
The US has the biggest economy in the world and has had unbelievable growth and wealth yet inequality is out of control, the treatment of the poor and those in poverty is shocking. Not sure 2% growth is helping them very much.
We are already the wealthiest generation in terms of "Money", "Assests" than any other other period in history. Does this make us happy? Not by figures showing depression, anxiety and suicide climbing.
We have enough wealth, what we need to do is redistribute that and focus on the well being of every species on the planet.
I just think the capitalist system has driven us to over-consumption and placed our focus too heavily on money, assets and stuff. This is often at the expense of social connections to other people, family, creative pursuits etc.
Why do we need to work 40-50 hours a week for 47 years so we can then spend time with family and do what we want. Why can we not work less now and spend time with those that matter and do things we enjoy. The answer is we believe we need "Stuff" to be happy and the system drives us to consume.
As for noticing impacts of climate change, maybe NZ is insulated somewhat but I can assure you Australia is not. We have had arguably the worst start to the fire season ever and parts of the country are experiencing catastrophic fire danger for the first time. Towns are running out of water, rivers are drying and fish are dying. The drought is ongoing and impacting many. We are experiencing massive flooding events, coastal erosion, coastal bleaching and many species are in threat of extinction. We had 8 days over 40 degrees at my place in one month which is a record.
I believe we as humans are largely responsible for this mess, If we choose to do nothing and hope technology saves us then I fear for our kids and grandkids because we will be leaving them one hell of a mess.
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@chimoaus said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback
The question is, can we have year on year growth and not fuck over the planet for future generations. If we have 2-3% growth in GDP and population every year the demand for stuff will continue to rise, where do all of these resources come from and where do all these people go.Yes of course we can. We have unlimited resources.
GDP IMO is a poor barometer on the well being of humans and the environment. What metric do you use to judge how well a society is doing? Who has the biggest house? who has the most iphones per capita? who consumes the most resources and produces the most stuff?
How about how many people are starving to death, how many are dying by diseases etc etc . And these are directly related to GDP, so actually GDP is a fucking amazing indicator.
The US has the biggest economy in the world and has had unbelievable growth and wealth yet inequality is out of control, the treatment of the poor and those in poverty is shocking. Not sure 2% growth is helping them very much.
yes and which states have the worst issues with homelessness, extreme poverty and deprivation? Ones that have ignored economic growth indicators and have instead embraced social justice and a Green agenda.
We are already the wealthiest generation in terms of "Money", "Assests" than any other other period in history. Does this make us happy? Not by figures showing depression, anxiety and suicide climbing.
But what make you happy? Being grateful, and the current generations are the most ungrateful spoilt shits in the history of the world. We have the best opportunities, lifestyle and lifespan that ever existed and we bitch and complain about everything.
And that doesnt even touch on the mass hysteria and depression caused by the death cultists in the climate change extinction movement, FFS you have people not having kids because they think the future is sooo bad. Morons.. but Darwin effect in full roar.We have enough wealth, what we need to do is redistribute that and focus on the well being of every species on the planet.
I am not even sure what that means. You are saying the current wealth is enough? We should stop growing? the current haves should just keep? It should all be redistributed? (that has NEVER worked anywhere EVER btw)
Why do we need to focus on every species?I just think the capitalist system has driven us to over-consumption and placed our focus too heavily on money, assets and stuff. This is often at the expense of social connections to other people, family, creative pursuits etc.
Capitalism hasnt done that, humans have always been greedy because they care about them and theres. Being greedy has led to the great advances you enjoy today. Would you like to point out to any time in history, under any system of govt, where basically every human on the planet hasnt focused on assets, money and stuff? This facile attack on Capitalism is just silly, what you should be attacking is cronyism and elitism, and that is nothing specific to Capitalism and is more linked to big govt.
Why do we need to work 40-50 hours a week for 47 years so we can then spend time with family and do what we want. Why can we not work less now and spend time with those that matter and do things we enjoy. The answer is we believe we need "Stuff" to be happy and the system drives us to consume.
Beats the shit out of working 40-50 hours a week to just stop your family starving and still not having any stuff and a shit life span.. which every other system except Capitalism produces.
As for noticing impacts of climate change, maybe NZ is insulated somewhat but I can assure you Australia is not. We have had arguably the worst start to the fire season ever and parts of the country are experiencing catastrophic fire danger for the first time. Towns are running out of water, rivers are drying and fish are dying. The drought is ongoing and impacting many. We are experiencing massive flooding events, coastal erosion, coastal bleaching and many species are in threat of extinction. We had 8 days over 40 degrees at my place in one month which is a record.
Not going to address that because I just so fundamentally disagree with your analysis.
I believe we as humans are largely responsible for this mess, If we choose to do nothing and hope technology saves us then I fear for our kids and grandkids because we will be leaving them one hell of a mess.
What mess? You mean record life spans? Record wealth? Least people living under poverty than any time before? Most leisure time than any humans in history? Affordable and readily accessed miracle drugs to the vast majority of the planet. I am super excited for my kids and grandkids future, I see great achievements and advances in the future to make the already great achievements of my generation look like the stone age. I hold no stock on the negative chicken little doomsday scenario that it is all down hill from here. Every era has them going back millenia, and they are ALWAYS wrong.
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Are we dead set sure that these bushfires are caused neatly and certainly by climate change?
Seems to me that fires in Aus have been a permanent thing. Now, the human habitats affected by fires has increased for sure, but did the climate cause these fires?
Looks all a bit like recency bias.
Happy to be wrong, (Christ happy to learn anything authentic about climate change!)
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@Siam said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Are we dead set sure that these bushfires are caused neatly and certainly by climate change?
Seems to me that fires in Aus have been a permanent thing. Now, the human habitats affected by fires has increased for sure, but did the climate cause these fires?
Looks all a bit like recency bias.
Happy to be wrong, (Christ happy to learn anything authentic about climate change!)
That's impossible to know.
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This is not normal: what's different about the NSW mega fires
I write this piece reluctantly, because there are still possible fire victims unaccounted for; people have lost loved ones; and hundreds of families have lost their homes. My heart goes out to them. I don’t want to detract in any way from the vital safety messages that our fire commissioners and Premier will be making about Tuesday’s fire potential.
Everyone needs to heed the fire service warnings to prepare, to have a plan, and to leave early if you’re not properly prepared. Know that the best firefighters in the world – volunteer and paid – will be out in force from NSW agencies and interstate to do battle with the worst that an angry Mother Nature can throw at us. But as we saw on Friday, the sheer scale and ferocity of mega fires can defy even the best efforts.
In the past I’ve have heard some federal politicians dodge the question of the influence of climate change on extreme weather and fires by saying, "It’s terrible that this matter is being raised while the fires are still burning." But if not now, then when?
"Unprecedented" is a word that we are hearing a lot: from fire chiefs, politicians, and the weather bureau. I have just returned from California where I spoke to fire chiefs still battling unseasonal fires. The same word, "unprecedented", came up.
Unprecedented dryness; reductions in long-term rainfall; low humidity; high temperatures; wind velocities; fire danger indices; fire spread and ferocity; instances of pyro-convective fires (fire storms – making their own weather); early starts and late finishes to bushfire seasons. An established long-term trend driven by a warming, drying climate. The numbers don’t lie, and the science is clear.
If anyone tells you, "This is part of a normal cycle" or "We’ve had fires like this before", smile politely and walk away, because they don’t know what they’re talking about.
In NSW, our worst fire years were almost always during an El Nino event, and major property losses generally occurred from late November to February. Based on more than a century of weather observations our official fire danger season is legislated from October 1 to March 31. During the 2000s though, major fires have regularly started in August and September, and sometimes go through to April.
The October 2013 fires that destroyed more than 200 homes were the earliest large-loss fires in NSW history – again, not during an El Nino.
This year, by the beginning of November, we had already lost about as many homes as during the disastrous 2001-2002 bushfire season. We’ve now eclipsed 1994 fire losses.
Fires are burning in places and at intensities never before experienced – rainforests in northern NSW, tropical Queensland, and the formerly wet old-growth forests in Tasmania.
On Friday, the NSW Rural Fire Service sent out an alert that fires were creating thunderstorms – pyro-convective events. In my 47 years of fighting fires I don’t remember this happening much. Now it happens quite regularly. On Friday, the atmosphere was relatively stable and therefore shouldn’t have been conducive to these wildly unpredictable and dangerous events. Yet it happened. Unprecedented.
The drought we are facing is more intense than the Millennium Drought, with higher levels of evaporation due to higher temperatures. This has dried out the bush and made it easier for fires to start, easier for them to spread quickly, and as we saw on Friday, enabling spot fires to start twice as far ahead of the main fires as we would normally expect.
Warmer, drier conditions with higher fire danger are preventing agencies from conducting as much hazard reduction burning – it is often either too wet, or too dry and windy to burn safely. Blaming "greenies" for stopping these important measures is a familiar, populist, but basically untrue claim.
Together with 22 other retired fire and emergency service chiefs, I spoke out earlier this year. We felt we had a duty to tell people how climate change is super-charging our natural disaster risks. I wish we were wrong, but we’re not.
I’m confident that our national government, when the smoke and dust settles, will finally see the obvious and understand the word "unprecedented". I’m sure it will then start to take decisive action to tackle the base cause – greenhouse emissions - then use the high moral ground to lean on other countries to also do the right thing.
In the meantime, please, please play it safe, and act on the vital fire service warnings.
Greg Mullins is a former Fire and Rescue NSW commissioner and a councillor on the Climate Council.
Climate Change