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@Winger Did you see the next graph on that link you posted, seems to support the hockey stick. Looks like we can all find data that supports our belief. I find thinking for myself helps and I have experienced and seen signs of a warming planet. I cannot know if that is man made as I am no scientist, but I tend to believe experts in that field.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback Same as every other person on the planet then?
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@chimoaus said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback Same as every other person on the planet then?
Yip
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback This is part of the problem isn't it, we as humans tend to have very strong beliefs that rarely change and we can be stubborn even in the face of evidence, think flat earthers.
When something like CC comes along it can be almost impossible to find a consensus among people. Who do you believe? How much evidence is enough? How long do you have to wait until the debate is over?
None of us are experts yet we all have strong beliefs including myself. As I have mentioned before I am suffering through the hottest ever recorded temperatures on record, drought and the real risk of fire. It is not hard for my brain to link these dramas to climate change, but is that the actual cause? As usual plenty say yes and some say no.
My theory is if we are responsible for CC and we can do things that reduce our impact without causing too many dramas I think we should. I am thinking greener energy, electric cars etc etc.
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@chimoaus This comment was good just above your graph:
If you ask the IPCC, founded in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environment Programme, they’ll tell you that the planet has warmed since the Medieval Warm Period based on the following graph collecting estimates of past climate by many researchers.
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@chimoaus No you believe some experts, and don't believe others
Yep. Believe the university professor scientists (who get grants), or the scientists supported by oil companies and governments?
I've watched worldwide meteorology for 35 years as it effected my everyday life on all parts of the globe. I also studied it and I believe my neighbour. It is warming, whether the "tipping point" predictions are credible, I don't know and neither was he sure.
In some ways historical data is irrelevant because we didn't have mass human involvement with releasing carbon (or not, depending on your viewpoint) as a scientific control. There is nothing to compare it to.
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@chimoaus said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
My theory is if we are responsible for CC and we can do things that reduce our impact without causing too many dramas I think we should. I am thinking greener energy, electric cars etc etc.
I think most sensible people are in total agreement with this.
The outrage is when the plan involves the destruction of society, indirect killing millions of people and is pushed by rich jet setting folk who don't practice what they preach and are pro censorship, expulsion or imprisonment for those that don't tow their extremist line.
I think there is just a lot of ignorance out there as to what adopting extremist policies would actually do to an average person's life. Websites like NZ's Stuff.co.nz (and I'm sure many more mainstream sites) outright ban all opposing views or simply paint everyone with an alternative take as 'climate change deniers' which sits somewhere between 'Holocaust denier' and 'Flat-earther' in the hierarchy of people you don't want to associate with.
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I realise this proves nothing but the heatwave we are going through now is fucken terrible. The animals are suffering, its almost impossible to do anything outside. We have had I think 11mm of rain in over a month.
And it is getting to 43 today and 46 on Friday.
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@Rembrandt I guess that is the tricky part, find solutions that have minimal impact on people. With so many competing interests from big business to extremists, finding the balance is hard. I do believe that the voice of the people will ultimately dictate how govts will respond. How those people get their voice or beliefs is the interesting part.
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There's a vast chasm between the measurable, observable, replicable science and quoting the worst case scenarios from models, or the unqualified prognosticators of doom - the politicians and rent seekers.
Where you hop off that train determines whether you're sceptical or a nutjob.
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Yep. Believe the university professor scientists (who get grants), or the scientists supported by oil companies and governments?
Dont like this thinking much. I think there are opportunists and lobbyists on both sides, but it is massively lop sided towards the Green side. Huge money in grants,there is a huge corporate and political structure that relies on tax payers funding the movement. Any suggestion it is University professors vs oil companies is laughable in its simplicity and innacuracy. That is just a narrative repeated ad nauseam by the left.
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@antipodean Nice. Where and when you jump on the train to remedy (I think) irrefutable proof that things are changing rapidly) is of course personal choice.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Any suggestion it is University professors vs oil companies is laughable in its simplicity.
I didn't say that. The scientists are all getting paid by somebody. Take your pick.
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@Snowy I know you didn't, I was talking to a broader point and narrative . Politicians, corporations and universities all support tax payers paying shed tons of cash towards this.
That should make everyone suspicious. But it doesn't seem to. It is a bloody good trick
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It is a bloody good trick
Yep, from both sides. Pretty sure that I could ring an oil company and get them to fund a political campaign in exchange for exploration rights in NZ. Like wise a grant to provide a chicken little report.
Ultimately it is hard to know who to believe, but I think most agree that things are changing a little too fast. Do you believe that?
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It is a bloody good trick
Yep, from both sides. Pretty sure that I could ring an oil company and get them to fund a political campaign in exchange for exploration rights in NZ. Like wise a grant to provide a chicken little report.
I have a mate who works in climate research for one of the uni's in Melbourne and does work producing reports for various entities (I don't have many specifics) and he says just this. He gets asked to provide a report showing X, so he does. Another might ask for a report showing Y. So he does.
His honest opinion is yes things are warming, he is not sure that it is people doing to the warming, but he also can't say they aren't, the data is far too complex to show conclusively either way. He thinks taxing carbon is however laughable and the Paris climate accord a waste of time a large part because he is Chinese and hates the Chinese government and sees them gaming the system.
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We can all agrue about the science until the cows come home.
But its interesting that the first creation of a graph that shows the hockey stick (contrary to all the samples up until this point in time) refused to release his supporting data. I wonder why. Let me think about this for a bit
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@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I think most sensible people are in total agreement with this.
I don't agree. And one day in the future people will look back at a time when a weird madness swept the West (its only the West) where many thought cows farting and a tiny increase in CO2 was responsible for more warming than the sun.
You will maybe see the truth one day.
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Let me think about this for a bit
Yep, think for yourself. Nobody else does apparently.
I would like to understand your obsession with the hockey stick. There is other data out there that would suggest an escalating rise, and no I'm not spending my time finding it but I have seen it.
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Let me think about this for a bit
Yep, think for yourself. Nobody else does apparently.
I would like to understand your obsession with the hockey stick. There is other data out there that would suggest an escalating rise, and no I'm not spending my time finding it but I have seen it.
Most don't. they just bow down to authority figures. No matter what they are told. And that's the issue the West has today
But can we at least agree that cows farting and burping causing the planet to warm is just a bit out there?
Climate Change