NZ cricket 2021
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It's great to see Watling getting the accolades he deserves from cricketing world. He's truly world class, NZs best ever, and one of the finest keeper-batsmen to play the game. Despite the talent we have coming through he's going to leave a massive hole in the team.
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@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
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Smith, Parore and BMac were all regarded as the world's best with the gloves at some point in their careers, but only Smith was seriously in contention for a world XI spot because the batting of the 'keepers in the 80s wasn't at the level of the 90s or later, particularly with Andy Flower and Adam Gilchrist as obvious selections ahead of Parore and BMac respectively.
That said, it's hard to analyse 'keeper stats effectively because it's so dependent on the quality of the bowling especially. Even byes per match is dependent to some extent on bowlers not bowling unkeepable non-wides. Watling has great stats but he also has kept to our best bowling attack. Still, got to catch them when they come your way.
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@godder said in NZ cricket 2021:
Smith, Parore and BMac were all regarded as the world's best with the gloves at some point in their careers, but only Smith was seriously in contention for a world XI spot because the batting of the 'keepers in the 80s wasn't at the level of the 90s or later, particularly with Andy Flower and Adam Gilchrist as obvious selections ahead of Parore and BMac respectively.
That said, it's hard to analyse 'keeper stats effectively because it's so dependent on the quality of the bowling especially. Even byes per match is dependent to some extent on bowlers not bowling unkeepable non-wides. Watling has great stats but he also has kept to our best bowling attack. Still, got to catch them when they come your way.
Yeah there’s so many intangibles with keepers. I’m sure I read there was some argument to say that the guy who DOESN’T need to make the diving catches is a better keeper purely because he had the anticipation to not need to dive ?
There’s not a huge amount of stats to say one was necessarily better than the other but batting has to come into it, these days if a guy averaging 25 is competing with a guy averaging 35 the latter will get picked almost regardless of who is the better keeper.
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Players offered Black Caps contracts for 2021-22:
Tom Blundell, Trent Boult, Devon Conway, Colin de Grandhomme, Lockie Ferguson, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Kyle Jamieson, Tom Latham, Daryl Mitchell, Henry Nicholls, Jimmy Neesham, Glenn Phillips, Mitchell Santner, Ish Sodhi, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, Kane Williamson, Will Young.
In: Mitchell, Phillips
Out: Ajaz Patel, BJ Watling (retiring in June) -
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
I’m sure I read there was some argument to say that the guy who DOESN’T need to make the diving catches is a better keeper purely because he had the anticipation to not need to dive ?
There are keepers who dive when they could have anticipated fractionally earlier. In practice at the top level though, I suspect the slip cordon's rely on the keeper diving so that they can be placed just a fraction wider.
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@rotated said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
Yeah Smithy was a bit before my time so I didn't really see him keep live but he's held in extremely high regard so fair enough.
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@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@rotated said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
Yeah Smithy was a bit before my time so I didn't really see him keep live but he's held in extremely high regard so fair enough.
Smithy was a classic type keeper in that it was all about footwork. He would pull out an athletic type dive when required but usually didn't need to as he was already in the right place.
BMac was more a reactionary keeper. -
@crucial said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@rotated said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
Yeah Smithy was a bit before my time so I didn't really see him keep live but he's held in extremely high regard so fair enough.
Smithy was a classic type keeper in that it was all about footwork. He would pull out an athletic type dive when required but usually didn't need to as he was already in the right place.
BMac was more a reactionary keeper.You've never kept wicket have you?
Reactionary keeper!! How else is it done?🤭
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@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@crucial said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@rotated said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
Yeah Smithy was a bit before my time so I didn't really see him keep live but he's held in extremely high regard so fair enough.
Smithy was a classic type keeper in that it was all about footwork. He would pull out an athletic type dive when required but usually didn't need to as he was already in the right place.
BMac was more a reactionary keeper.You've never kept wicket have you?
Reactionary keeper!! How else is it done?🤭
I think you know what I mean.
Shall I just say less footwork more body movement? -
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
@godder said in NZ cricket 2021:
Smith, Parore and BMac were all regarded as the world's best with the gloves at some point in their careers, but only Smith was seriously in contention for a world XI spot because the batting of the 'keepers in the 80s wasn't at the level of the 90s or later, particularly with Andy Flower and Adam Gilchrist as obvious selections ahead of Parore and BMac respectively.
That said, it's hard to analyse 'keeper stats effectively because it's so dependent on the quality of the bowling especially. Even byes per match is dependent to some extent on bowlers not bowling unkeepable non-wides. Watling has great stats but he also has kept to our best bowling attack. Still, got to catch them when they come your way.
Yeah there’s so many intangibles with keepers. I’m sure I read there was some argument to say that the guy who DOESN’T need to make the diving catches is a better keeper purely because he had the anticipation to not need to dive ?
There’s not a huge amount of stats to say one was necessarily better than the other but batting has to come into it, these days if a guy averaging 25 is competing with a guy averaging 35 the latter will get picked almost regardless of who is the better keeper.
Agree with the point about batting average - it's definitely going to be a major factor.
Hadlee said that about anticipation vs diving in Rhythm and Swing, and I've heard Smith say it as well in a training video (Hadlee on Cricket I think).
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@crucial said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@crucial said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@rotated said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
Yeah Smithy was a bit before my time so I didn't really see him keep live but he's held in extremely high regard so fair enough.
Smithy was a classic type keeper in that it was all about footwork. He would pull out an athletic type dive when required but usually didn't need to as he was already in the right place.
BMac was more a reactionary keeper.You've never kept wicket have you?
Reactionary keeper!! How else is it done?🤭
I think you know what I mean.
Shall I just say less footwork more body movement?Yeah.🙂 Footwork mostly. The boxing boys on here will notice the same slight differences. Other variables are pitch surfaces and bowlers. Smithy had a different "ride" with paddles, chats, Cairns and sneddon on slowish green seamers. Nothing too wild coming from those boys as opposed to Bond or West Indians on dry hard wickets - all the footwork in the world won't cut it at times.
Keeping up is an entirely different beast and you couldn't teach Dhonis skill in that.
Also length of fielding innings can affect the "look" of a keeper. Some guys don't toil through 2 new balls often.
Another feature of a great keeper is how well the fielding unit went with them. Smithys book, drummer in the band was a good title. The rhythm section comparison is a good one. Haddon probably brought out the best in Aussie fielders but might not be so well received in ours. Similarly Parore, who by all accounts could be "difficult".Darren Berry was the best keeper I saw up close playing against, like all great sports people, makes it look all so easy.
BJ toiled at it and got through on concentration and application more than the other kiwi 3. Not a criticism. Everyone who saw him quickly mentions Ken Wadsworths keeping.Overall though, a bit like boxing. Substandard footwork will only get you so far regardless of brilliant hands
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speaking of footwork... how is this!?
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@donsteppa said in NZ cricket 2021:
@bayimports said in NZ cricket 2021:
@canefan said in NZ cricket 2021:
@shark said in NZ cricket 2021:
Didn't really rescue us in Australia in 19/20 though did he
Who did? IIRC Blundell was the only guy who emerged with his reputation enhanced.
really? ......wags might have something to say about that
I thought he meant of the batsman, but the grand total of two impressive players from that series reminds me of why I try to forget that series...!
What series?
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His average is 39.77 so Watling could very realistically nudge that above 40 over these last three tests. That would be some feat for a Kiwi keeper. Reminds me of the last few tests of Flems' career, also against England I think. Fleming couldn't manage a tenth test century (funny how at the time that seemed like a lot for a NZ batsman, and should have been much more but his conversion rate was abysmal), but he did scrape through with his average back above 40 to finish.
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@shark said in NZ cricket 2021:
His average is 39.77 so Watling could very realistically nudge that above 40 over these last three tests. That would be some feat for a Kiwi keeper. Reminds me of the last few tests of Flems' career, also against England I think. Fleming couldn't manage a tenth test century (funny how at the time that seemed like a lot for a NZ batsman, and should have been much more but his conversion rate was abysmal), but he did scrape through with his average back above 40 to finish.
According to who ? Cricinfo has it at 38.11 so he’s unlikely to get above 40.
Doesn’t matter though, a legend no matter what on account of that plus his keeping.
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@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
@shark said in NZ cricket 2021:
His average is 39.77 so Watling could very realistically nudge that above 40 over these last three tests. That would be some feat for a Kiwi keeper. Reminds me of the last few tests of Flems' career, also against England I think. Fleming couldn't manage a tenth test century (funny how at the time that seemed like a lot for a NZ batsman, and should have been much more but his conversion rate was abysmal), but he did scrape through with his average back above 40 to finish.
According to who ? Cricinfo has it at 38.11 so he’s unlikely to get above 40.
Doesn’t matter though, a legend no matter what on account of that plus his keeping.
Bailed us out more times than I can remember
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@canefan said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
@shark said in NZ cricket 2021:
His average is 39.77 so Watling could very realistically nudge that above 40 over these last three tests. That would be some feat for a Kiwi keeper. Reminds me of the last few tests of Flems' career, also against England I think. Fleming couldn't manage a tenth test century (funny how at the time that seemed like a lot for a NZ batsman, and should have been much more but his conversion rate was abysmal), but he did scrape through with his average back above 40 to finish.
According to who ? Cricinfo has it at 38.11 so he’s unlikely to get above 40.
Doesn’t matter though, a legend no matter what on account of that plus his keeping.
Bailed us out more times than I can remember
Pun intended I hope
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@shark said in NZ cricket 2021:
@dogmeat said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 Smithy had only played 3 tests when Knott retired and two full seasons when Marsh did.
Yeah I'm pretty sure Smith was regarded as being right up there come the late 80s. Quality glove work, two test centuries in a time when keepers only had to be handy with the bat, and a reputation for being able to hit a long ball after he equalled a world record for runs off a test over.
As I recall Smith was considered a world-class keeper and an unreliable if under-rated batsman with a beautiful but over-used cut.
He fixed that though in retirement, in later years he was far more well-rounded. -
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
@canefan said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
@shark said in NZ cricket 2021:
His average is 39.77 so Watling could very realistically nudge that above 40 over these last three tests. That would be some feat for a Kiwi keeper. Reminds me of the last few tests of Flems' career, also against England I think. Fleming couldn't manage a tenth test century (funny how at the time that seemed like a lot for a NZ batsman, and should have been much more but his conversion rate was abysmal), but he did scrape through with his average back above 40 to finish.
According to who ? Cricinfo has it at 38.11 so he’s unlikely to get above 40.
Doesn’t matter though, a legend no matter what on account of that plus his keeping.
Bailed us out more times than I can remember
Pun intended I hope
Not at all
