-
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@jc said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan That’s pretty much exactly what I’ve heard. People here are pretty sick of pandering to these thugs. The kids in Hastings wear Mob “merch”. It’s cool. The Mob’s has been put through some kind of official reputation scrubbing process where people who should know better are trying to gaslight us with the idea that it’s all just harmless dressing up. Instead of the, you know, killing and raping.
Well it’s an opportunity for National to have clear differences from Labour.
Have a laundry list of taxes to roll back, and go hard on the gangs. It’s not just the money laundering Labour has inexplicably involved it self with but their soft polices have seen gang numbers sky rocket.
Gang numbers rising doesn't happen overnight. Collective responsibility required on that. Finger pointing is what means that nothing meaningful gets achieved by either party. Fair enough to call out if promises aren't addressed but to say that increased numbers are due to one party or another ignores the underlying issues.
Again though 'gang numbers' is misleading in itself. Gangs are very intricate and not as simple as many of these arguments make out. Not all gang members or associates are crims. It's a huge problem and not one that can be fixed by 'law and order' hard policies. That has been tried in the past and only entrenches things further.
What are the 'soft policies'?
Are you advocating that National roll back their own legislation to stop the perception of 'money laundering'.?The period being measured are the Labour terms, since they have been in power gang numbers have risen by 50%. Four years isn't overnight.
And it's Labour's policy, not National's. Surprised you are being fooled by that sort of pathetic smokescreen. Only Labour have given money to the Mongrel Mob to help resolve a problem they are actively causing.
Back to this again.
Please show me where Labour have given money directly to 'the Mongrel Mob'. You keep using the name as a catch all term. Does that mean that if a Mob member works for a business that business is ineligible for any govt contracts, because that's what you are arguing.
As for the gang numbers, that's not from agreed accurate numbers either. Police themselves say that it isn't accurate to use in that context. Police Int data would list all and any associates, friends, business contacts etc. If you look at the stats across districts either some areas are seeing massive number growth or the intelligence in those areas is gathering more data.
If you do work to identify more people to put on the list then the number will increase. Bit like saying 'more people are running red lights after we installed cameras to catch them'This has already been answered by several posters, and quoted comments above. Feel free to re-read.
Currently, you seem to be the only one that can't make the link, and seem to think you know more than the local police involved.
Not one thing there proves your assertion that money is being given directly to the Mongrel Mob. They are involved and are providing a paid service to another party that is a part of the overall programme. This is no different at all to similar schemes run under other govts using the same funding process.
I understand the connection, of course, but you (and others) keep stating incorrect 'facts'
So the Police Officer I quoted above is wrong, and you know better? That's a pretty amusing take.
Not wrong. I enjoyed reading his take. But you are deliberately misinterpreting what he says.
"While the Kahukura program may have good backing from other people and providers it lacks all credibility when it is associated with the mob and Sonny Smith in CHB/Shield Snorters."
Key word there is 'associated'.
The Programme receives money and as part of the programme (not all of it or even a majority aspect in spend) they use land owned by Smith.Yes, they contract that part out and pay for it.
You keep telling me that is different to the SA receiving funds to run a programme that engages with, and pays gang related providers.Are you being serious? I think you skipped over these sentences;
"funding for a program based in Waipawa with strong connections to Sonny SMITH who is National President of Notorious Mongrel Mob"
That's a hell of an association...
"Not much happens in Shield Snorters or CHB that isn’t sanctioned by Sonny"
Again, an opinion of someone that is an expert.
"Fair to say that Notorious (and other chapters) have also been involved in a few government funded work schemes over the years that didn’t produce many tangible results."
They have form of taking funding and not producing results.
In Hastings and CHB it is all meth trade is related to the Mongrel Mob (different chapters etc), they control the trade and create the addictions and peddle the misery. They also have the power to stop the supply of meth anytime they want to forgo their lucrative trade…not likely.
If the Mob wanted to help Meth addiction they could......stop selling Meth?
"It is a slap in the face for all the other meth addicts that can’t get help because of lack of placements on programs…when this one is set aside for gang members that have caused much of the addiction in the community. "
The main point he was making, which is lost on your contortions to deny this lining the pockets of the Mongrel Mob. Hell, even the program details them doing gardening on Sonny Smith's property! Absolutely taking the piss.
There is part of the programme doing gardening on Smith's place. That IS the connection. The programme ISN'T Smith. I'm not sure how many times I have to explain that but it keeps going whooosh. Yes a gang leader is ASSOCIATED with the programme but the headlines and slant of that writer's piece keep making out that he is running it.
As I said the opinions of the writer were an interesting read, I can't disagree that it would be good if money went to other initiatives but that isn't how the PoC pool works.
The whoosh going on here is not in my direction.
-
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@jc said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan That’s pretty much exactly what I’ve heard. People here are pretty sick of pandering to these thugs. The kids in Hastings wear Mob “merch”. It’s cool. The Mob’s has been put through some kind of official reputation scrubbing process where people who should know better are trying to gaslight us with the idea that it’s all just harmless dressing up. Instead of the, you know, killing and raping.
Well it’s an opportunity for National to have clear differences from Labour.
Have a laundry list of taxes to roll back, and go hard on the gangs. It’s not just the money laundering Labour has inexplicably involved it self with but their soft polices have seen gang numbers sky rocket.
Gang numbers rising doesn't happen overnight. Collective responsibility required on that. Finger pointing is what means that nothing meaningful gets achieved by either party. Fair enough to call out if promises aren't addressed but to say that increased numbers are due to one party or another ignores the underlying issues.
Again though 'gang numbers' is misleading in itself. Gangs are very intricate and not as simple as many of these arguments make out. Not all gang members or associates are crims. It's a huge problem and not one that can be fixed by 'law and order' hard policies. That has been tried in the past and only entrenches things further.
What are the 'soft policies'?
Are you advocating that National roll back their own legislation to stop the perception of 'money laundering'.?The period being measured are the Labour terms, since they have been in power gang numbers have risen by 50%. Four years isn't overnight.
And it's Labour's policy, not National's. Surprised you are being fooled by that sort of pathetic smokescreen. Only Labour have given money to the Mongrel Mob to help resolve a problem they are actively causing.
Back to this again.
Please show me where Labour have given money directly to 'the Mongrel Mob'. You keep using the name as a catch all term. Does that mean that if a Mob member works for a business that business is ineligible for any govt contracts, because that's what you are arguing.
As for the gang numbers, that's not from agreed accurate numbers either. Police themselves say that it isn't accurate to use in that context. Police Int data would list all and any associates, friends, business contacts etc. If you look at the stats across districts either some areas are seeing massive number growth or the intelligence in those areas is gathering more data.
If you do work to identify more people to put on the list then the number will increase. Bit like saying 'more people are running red lights after we installed cameras to catch them'This has already been answered by several posters, and quoted comments above. Feel free to re-read.
Currently, you seem to be the only one that can't make the link, and seem to think you know more than the local police involved.
Not one thing there proves your assertion that money is being given directly to the Mongrel Mob. They are involved and are providing a paid service to another party that is a part of the overall programme. This is no different at all to similar schemes run under other govts using the same funding process.
I understand the connection, of course, but you (and others) keep stating incorrect 'facts'
So the Police Officer I quoted above is wrong, and you know better? That's a pretty amusing take.
Not wrong. I enjoyed reading his take. But you are deliberately misinterpreting what he says.
"While the Kahukura program may have good backing from other people and providers it lacks all credibility when it is associated with the mob and Sonny Smith in CHB/Shield Snorters."
Key word there is 'associated'.
The Programme receives money and as part of the programme (not all of it or even a majority aspect in spend) they use land owned by Smith.Yes, they contract that part out and pay for it.
You keep telling me that is different to the SA receiving funds to run a programme that engages with, and pays gang related providers.Are you being serious? I think you skipped over these sentences;
"funding for a program based in Waipawa with strong connections to Sonny SMITH who is National President of Notorious Mongrel Mob"
That's a hell of an association...
"Not much happens in Shield Snorters or CHB that isn’t sanctioned by Sonny"
Again, an opinion of someone that is an expert.
"Fair to say that Notorious (and other chapters) have also been involved in a few government funded work schemes over the years that didn’t produce many tangible results."
They have form of taking funding and not producing results.
In Hastings and CHB it is all meth trade is related to the Mongrel Mob (different chapters etc), they control the trade and create the addictions and peddle the misery. They also have the power to stop the supply of meth anytime they want to forgo their lucrative trade…not likely.
If the Mob wanted to help Meth addiction they could......stop selling Meth?
"It is a slap in the face for all the other meth addicts that can’t get help because of lack of placements on programs…when this one is set aside for gang members that have caused much of the addiction in the community. "
The main point he was making, which is lost on your contortions to deny this lining the pockets of the Mongrel Mob. Hell, even the program details them doing gardening on Sonny Smith's property! Absolutely taking the piss.
There is part of the programme doing gardening on Smith's place. That IS the connection. The programme ISN'T Smith. I'm not sure how many times I have to explain that but it keeps going whooosh. Yes a gang leader is ASSOCIATED with the programme but the headlines and slant of that writer's piece keep making out that he is running it.
As I said the opinions of the writer were an interesting read, I can't disagree that it would be good if money went to other initiatives but that isn't how the PoC pool works.
You seem to be determined to count angels on pinheads on this, so let’s break this down.
The payment was made to Kahukura / Hard2Reach. It’s sole operating director is Harry Tam. Harry Tam is a member of the Mongrel Mob. The principal consultant is Mahinaarangi Smith. She is the wife of Sonny Smith who remains the national president of the Notorious Mongrel Mob.
Harry Tam posted this video shortly before the election confirming he is still a Mongrel Mob member:
In it you can hear him say "We’re the mighty fucking Mongrel Mob and we don’t take shit from any c_unt, and why should we take it from them” and “Sieg Heil to the Mongrel Mob for another 1,000 years”. He is not retired.
The Notorious Mongrel Mob is not a democracy. It is an organised criminal organisation with a strictly hierarchical structure. As president it is inconceivable that anything material undertaken by any of its members, including Harry Tam, would not need his approval. It is also unlikely that his wife operates entirely without his knowledge and influence.
You have said that “ Gang numbers rising doesn't happen overnight.”, implying that that the growth in gang numbers is stems from prior to Labour’s time on the Treasury benches, so you can argue it is everybody’s fault or nobody’s: "Collective responsibility required on that”. You’ve given no evidence for that but countering it is consistent anti-gang rhetoric from National.
What National policies have been responsible for the growth in numbers?
What policies that caused increases in funding of criminal gangs should National be rolling back?
You have said the term “gang numbers” is misleading. What are the correct numbers? Are they available or is this just personal incredulity? I notice that when Poto Williams was presented with a number based on Police intelligence she disputed their accuracy but could not produce an alternative number. She has not done so since. So I’m interested in where your confidence that the numbers are misleading stems from.
You have suggested that the growth is all down to better counting. You should probably cite your source for that.
You have wearing gang t shirts is a survival technique. I work smack in the middle of the biggest Mob area in the country so you’ll forgive me if I suspect that is trite nonsense. Hastings is not East LA. And if there is pressure then explain the people who live in Napier, well away from Flaxmere.
-
@jc Can't watch the vid at the moment but am interested to. If it is what you say then it certainly does go against some of what I have been arguing. Tam had previously left the gang for all intents and given Police Clearances for various public service jobs. He remained associated as part of his liaison type roles.
As for the question of gang numbers I didn't say that all increases were based on better counting but I understand that increased intelligence efforts have been put into identifying members and associates for two reasons. One being the 501s situation that has created new gangs and recruitment (along with extra recruitment efforts by 'traditional' gangs where the 501s have set up).
@jc said in NZ Politics:
What National policies have been responsible for the growth in numbers?
Many, as well as Labour policies. Gangs don't establish and grow in a vacuum. They are a reflection on society. That's not an excuse for scumbags that take advantages of societal situations BTW.
-
Hasn't Aussie's export of 'bad characters' been one of the biggest drivers for gang growth in recent years?
This sort of arrangement is pretty clearly fraught, as evidenced by the last few pages. Can you be both 'out of the gang' and still hold sufficient leverage due to that 'historic' relationship? Perhaps, but it's getting pretty grey and murky imo.
But even if all parties mentioned are operating in good faith I can't disconnect the creation of addicts requiring treatment from gangs selling the shit. And we know there isn't a shit show that any gang leader has the ability to stop that business, and even if one gang did then the rest would occupy that vaccum faster than you could get down to your local tinny house.
-
@paekakboyz I am sure they have the stats, but it sure feels like.the past few years since Aus been exporting those criminals our crime has been on the increase, more petty stuff and certainly alot more serious stuff, particularly involving guns.
-
@taniwharugby and there was that geared up team they tried out in Akld wasn't there. Pretty sure that was connected to the increase in gun related incidents.
-
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@paekakboyz I am sure they have the stats, but it sure feels like.the past few years since Aus been exporting those criminals our crime has been on the increase, more petty stuff and certainly alot more serious stuff, particularly involving guns.
Yeah, it's whole new gangs being started that are based on the Oz MC models which are outright criminal enterprises with guns more prevalent. The 'traditional' NZ gangs are a mixture.
The raw numbers of Oz MC gang members isn't overly high it's just that they report back to their Oz chapters who enable them to set up and recruit whole new enterprises in the NZ market. There is a race element as well.
The trad gangs hate them too. Not just because of turf wars and dealing but because of the increase in tensions that they bring and the race part. MM and BP are Maori based, Crips/Bloods/ KBs are PI based. The MCs are mainly white.
We went through a period before the 501s where trad gangs had settled down and new their boundaries. There was the odd flare up but generally it was just the drugs element that police could concentrate on. Now they have to keep an eye on all movements in a crowded scene. -
-
@mick-gold-coast-qld said in NZ Politics:
New Zealand Prime Ministerette goes full third world dictator: “We will continue to be your single source of truth.”
Good Lord it has a big gob! ... and it is dangerous, with this “my truth is the only true truth, you peasants!”, because it clearly believes you lot deserve this from her!
Bro.
Calm down. -
@kruse said in NZ Politics:
@mick-gold-coast-qld said in NZ Politics:
New Zealand Prime Ministerette goes full third world dictator: “We will continue to be your single source of truth.”
Good Lord it has a big gob! ... and it is dangerous, with this “my truth is the only true truth, you peasants!”, because it clearly believes you lot deserve this from her!
Bro.
Calm down.Eh?
-
returning to the free speech debate, spotted this and thought I'd share. This is the end game of not vigorously defending freedom of speech - at some stage, those who have levers to pull start pulling them to ban speech that is offensive to those in power, but really really important.
-
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
returning to the free speech debate, spotted this and thought I'd share. This is the end game of not vigorously defending freedom of speech - at some stage, those who have levers to pull start pulling them to ban speech that is offensive to those in power, but really really important.
It is Communist China so hardly surprising.
I've missed the relevance to NZ Politics though?
-
@booboo said in NZ Politics:
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
returning to the free speech debate, spotted this and thought I'd share. This is the end game of not vigorously defending freedom of speech - at some stage, those who have levers to pull start pulling them to ban speech that is offensive to those in power, but really really important.
It is Communist China so hardly surprising.
I've missed the relevance to NZ Politics though?
Joining the dots for you, we're having a debate about freedom of speech in our country at the moment. This is the extreme end of freedom of speech being held by the government ... arresting people for publishing allegorical kids books. The heart of the issue is who gets to decide what's OK and what's not -- if it's the government, eventually it'll be some folk you don't agree with.
-
@mick-gold-coast-qld said in NZ Politics:
@kruse said in NZ Politics:
@mick-gold-coast-qld said in NZ Politics:
New Zealand Prime Ministerette goes full third world dictator: “We will continue to be your single source of truth.”
Good Lord it has a big gob! ... and it is dangerous, with this “my truth is the only true truth, you peasants!”, because it clearly believes you lot deserve this from her!
Bro.
Calm down.Eh?
Lose the insults about her appearance . And "It"? Grow up.
-
@smudge
This coming from a palooka who comes up with "I think I've come up with a word to describe the fatigue one suffers from reading too many columns on Ardern: Jaundicinda."?Peddle your hypocrisy to anyone but me, boof. You are stupid enough to vote for the evil fraud - live with it.
-
@mick-gold-coast-qld said in NZ Politics:
@smudge
This coming from a palooka who comes up with "I think I've come up with a word to describe the fatigue one suffers from reading too many columns on Ardern: Jaundicinda."?Peddle your hypocrisy to anyone but me, boof. You are stupid enough to vote for the evil fraud - live with it.
Key difference there, champ. That's a play on words on the fact I was tired of the number of columns fawning over her a while back, not a personal attack on her appearance.
Secondly, my comments in that post should probably give you the hint I'm not her biggest fan and most certainly did not vote for her party last year.
-
This is where we are in the culture wars. Academics saying that cultural beliefs are not sciences are vilified by Auckland University and the Royal Society.
Māori academics online have been encouraging people who do not agree with the letter to lodge a complaint to the Royal Society.
I struggle deeply with the concept that science is fundamentally racist. The whole basis of science is factual observation, and a lack of trust - ie that your observations are independently verified. Well, in the hard sciences at least ... replication issues in the social sciences is a bit of a major headache. As Rutherford famously said All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
The takeaway for me, though, is there is a real concern about being able to actually express views that aren't popular. Dollars to donuts there is significnat backlash to these scientists who disagree with the current viewpoint. Disagreement is at the heart of science. Feels like believing in and trusting the scientific method is starting to make me out of step with modern society and possibly a racist. It doesn't feel good.
-
Social science is a misnomer. Trading on science to gain respectability for twaddle, speciousness or obvious common sense.
-
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
This is where we are in the culture wars. Academics saying that cultural beliefs are not sciences are vilified by Auckland University and the Royal Society.
Māori academics online have been encouraging people who do not agree with the letter to lodge a complaint to the Royal Society.
I struggle deeply with the concept that science is fundamentally racist. The whole basis of science is factual observation, and a lack of trust - ie that your observations are independently verified. Well, in the hard sciences at least ... replication issues in the social sciences is a bit of a major headache. As Rutherford famously said All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
The takeaway for me, though, is there is a real concern about being able to actually express views that aren't popular. Dollars to donuts there is significnat backlash to these scientists who disagree with the current viewpoint. Disagreement is at the heart of science. Feels like believing in and trusting the scientific method is starting to make me out of step with modern society and possibly a racist. It doesn't feel good.
All quite weird really. The course states "promotes discussion and analysis of the ways......" which, to me, doesn't state a position rather an exploration of a notion.
Why a group of scientists would dismiss the exploration and discussion of a notion to add or remove value to it is a bit beyond me.
It's kind of saying "you don't need to look at that we already know the answer without doing so". -
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
This is where we are in the culture wars. Academics saying that cultural beliefs are not sciences are vilified by Auckland University and the Royal Society.
Māori academics online have been encouraging people who do not agree with the letter to lodge a complaint to the Royal Society.
I struggle deeply with the concept that science is fundamentally racist. The whole basis of science is factual observation, and a lack of trust - ie that your observations are independently verified. Well, in the hard sciences at least ... replication issues in the social sciences is a bit of a major headache. As Rutherford famously said All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
The takeaway for me, though, is there is a real concern about being able to actually express views that aren't popular. Dollars to donuts there is significnat backlash to these scientists who disagree with the current viewpoint. Disagreement is at the heart of science. Feels like believing in and trusting the scientific method is starting to make me out of step with modern society and possibly a racist. It doesn't feel good.
All quite weird really. The course states "promotes discussion and analysis of the ways......" which, to me, doesn't state a position rather an exploration of a notion.
Why a group of scientists would dismiss the exploration and discussion of a notion to add or remove value to it is a bit beyond me.
It's kind of saying "you don't need to look at that we already know the answer without doing so".A bit disingenuous not to quote the entire description;
"promotes discussion and analysis of the ways in which science has been used to support the dominance of Eurocentric views (among which, its use as a rationale for colonisation of Māori and the suppression of Māori knowledge): and the notion that science is a Western European invention and itself evidence of European dominance over Māori and other indigenous peoples."
It's not science as they have already decided the "notion" that science is basically racist. Which is a completely stupid "notion".
Science examines observations to build theory, not cherrypick observations to label an entire race/civilisation as racists and point at people as oppressors.
NZ Politics