Hillsborough

da_grubster

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576845" data-time="1462340264">I watched this happen live on TV when it happened and while there is no doubt that there were major errors by police and subsequently a cover up of what happened to cover their arses. For that alone some decision makers deserve to cop it. 
But while there was a terrible culture within the force in those days you simply can't also ignore that the football culture of the time was also a factor. 
I was living over there at the time and went to a couple of games for the experience and it was fucken scary. There was a complete mob mentality from within a vicinity of the game and pushing, shoving and such were just part of going to and being at the game. That video shows just how the 'mob' had no regard for anyone around them or any sense of reason. 
Yes, innocent people died and bad organisation failed to compensate adequately for what transpired but I still hold some small feeling that the 'mob' aren't entirely innocent in what went down that day. 
There is an element of 'let's blame the authorities that failed to rein in our bad behaviour'. 
A complete tradgedy.</blockquote>
 
Crucial, 
That is an ill informed and crass post based on a 'feeling' you have. This has been a cover up 27 years in the making and it has been finally torn down by years of incredible persistence & courage by the families and friends of the 96. 
Granted, football going crowds had poor elements in them in those days but the fans were completely exonerated by the exhaustive enquiries. 
I suggest you take the time to understand this before writing ill informed comments on the web on an incredibly emotive subject.

Stargazer

The Hillsborough drama took place only some years after the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels (1985), which also involved Liverpool fans and cost the lives of 39 people (32 Italians). They had an awful reputation all over Europe at the time, as most other English football fans. I think this has not helped their case in the aftermath of Hillsborough, because in the Heysel drama Liverpool fans were the main culprits.
 
But even the investigations of the Heysel Stadium disaster showed that not just fans were to blame, but also Brussels police and some (football) officials. All criminal and administrative proceedings following Heysel were finalised in 1989, four years after it happened. It is mind-boggling that it took 27 years for the truth to come out about the Hillsbrough drama, and survivors/relatives have had to wait so long. I hope they find peace and will now finally be able to go on with their lives.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="576861" data-time="1462342119">
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The Hillsborough drama took place only some years after the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels (1985), which also involved Liverpool fans and cost the lives of 39 people (32 Italians). They had an awful reputation all over Europe at the time, as most other English football fans. I think this has not helped their case in the aftermath of Hillsborough, because in the Heysel drama Liverpool fans were the main culprits.
 
 
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And there is the bane of the human condition - not having a go at you Stargazer, you correctly report an accurate observation
 
Humans have difficulty separating unrelated events that share coincidental factors or cohorts, thus we've got racism and stereotyping as everyday behaviours.
 
The people rightly ask for Hillsborough to be considered in isolation.

da_grubster

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="576861" data-time="1462342119">
The Hillsborough drama took place only some years after the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels (1985), which also involved Liverpool fans and cost the lives of 39 people (32 Italians). They had an awful reputation all over Europe at the time, as most other English football fans. I think this has not helped their case in the aftermath of Hillsborough, because in the Heysel drama Liverpool fans were the main culprits. 
But even the investigations of the Heysel Stadium disaster showed that not just fans were to blame, but also Brussels police and some (football) officials. All criminal and administrative proceedings following Heysel were finalised in 1989, four years after it happened. It is mind-boggling that it took 27 years for the truth to come out about the Hillsbrough drama, and survivors/relatives have had to wait so long. I hope they find peace and will now finally be able to go on with their lives.</blockquote>
Interestingly enough, in both cases, inadequate stadia and refusal to move or mitigate this were major factors in both tragedies unfolding. LFC asked for stadium moves. 
Both tragedies read like a horror book of errors. Not trying to absolve blame of LFC fans here but it is interesting to read fan accounts and reporting here. 
Heysel was indeed a tragedy.

Crucial

Can I suggest that everyone jumping all over my post takes a moment to actually read it. 
I will try and make my comments clearer. 
The police management and actions on the day were very poor and safety was overlooked. I remember watching in disgust as spectators trying to escape the crush were beaten back. 
I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame. 
What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner. 
I think that Siam is seeing those pictures of fans outside with rose tinted specs. Even the video he posted explained that there was a fear of a death outside from the crush and there was a shot of someone in distress being lifted out. That's not normal civilized behavior or recognition of a situation. It may have been the norm at the time but that doesn't mean that it doesn't add risk. That's what I meant by behavior.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576886" data-time="1462345240">
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Can I suggest that everyone jumping all over my post takes a moment to actually read it. 
I will try and make my comments clearer. 
The police management and actions on the day were very poor and safety was overlooked. I remember watching in disgust as spectators trying to escape the crush were beaten back. 
I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame. 
What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner. 
I think that Siam is seeing those pictures of fans outside with rose tinted specs. Even the video he posted explained that there was a fear of a death outside from the crush and there was a shot of someone in distress being lifted out. That's not normal civilized behavior or recognition of a situation. It may have been the norm at the time but that doesn't mean that it doesn't add risk. That's what I meant by behavior.
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Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576897" data-time="1462346072">Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?</blockquote>
 
Stop being so precious. 
I'm not victim blaming but if you see those fans outside the ground as having no responsibility for their behavior at all then we obviously differ. 
Did their behavior cause deaths? No. Did it contribute to the situation, yes.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576886" data-time="1462345240">
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I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame. 
What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner.
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Two statements completely and utterly at odds. But well done for your disgraceful victim blaming attack on innocent people.

jegga

If you can find this <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film</a>) its well worth watching. Its very hard going but Eccleston is superb as the father. 
 
Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?

Catogrande

Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="576906" data-time="1462347006">
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If you can find this <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film</a>) its well worth watching. Its very hard going but Eccleston is superb as the father. 
 
Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?
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I think prosecution for the actions on the day will be unlikely but the cover up? I bloody well hope so. It was disgraceful.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="576908" data-time="1462347163">
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I think prosecution for the actions on the day will be unlikely but the cover up? I bloody well hope so. It was disgraceful.
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I was pretty young when it happened but I remember the fans being blamed, watching that film made me pretty angry about the stories that had come out and how at the end they talked about some of the head cops getting promotions ffs after the inquest.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="576903" data-time="1462346780">Two statements completely and utterly at odds. But well done for your disgraceful victim blaming attack on innocent people.</blockquote>
Total rubbish. 
The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation. 
Where have I blamed victims? 
We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening. 
Those charged with upholding safety failed. 
If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576912" data-time="1462347804">
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Total rubbish. 
The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation. 
Where have I blamed victims? 
We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening. 
Those charged with upholding safety failed. 
If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.
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I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="576916" data-time="1462349450">
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I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.
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I doubt the cops involved expected it would turn out that way either, however reckless/negligent thier actions were.

da_grubster

Crucial, no one knew what was going on outside the stadium. 
The negligence to open the gate was the main reason for the escalation of the problem. Fans were simply trying to get inside the stadium to watch a game of football. The only people who knew a dangerous crush was happening were the people being crushed 
Probably best to leave this alone mate!

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="576906" data-time="1462347006">
<div>
 
 
Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?
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</blockquote>
 
Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials

TeWaio

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="576907" data-time="1462347064">
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Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.
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</blockquote>

I went to a boxing day game at Goodison Park a few years ago with my gf's Dad, a die hard Evertonian. I don't like crowds / cramped spaces at the best of times, and that place freaked me out. I think it is the one of the oldest stadia in the UK. Seriously like a rabbit warren with loads of bottlenecks. You can see how things could go seriously wrong, and that's with ticketed seating. Terraces + poorly managed crowd inflows.....makes me shudder to think about it.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576921" data-time="1462351204">
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Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials
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Excellent.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="576907" data-time="1462347064">
<div>
Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.
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</blockquote>
 
true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
 
Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
 
A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again

The Silver Fern

Hillsborough