Hillsborough
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I was puzzled by that too Cato.<br><br>
Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions.<br><br>
I don't know. I guess after 27 years of evidence appraisal even the most threadbare trace of causality gets explored.<br><br>
I been thinking about the images and details in that article all day though. That lady that lost 2 daughters<br><br>
Poor buggers. I hope this stuff this week helps them. I'm sure it does in some ways. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576967" data-time="1462371583"><p>I was puzzled by that too Cato.<br><br>Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions.</p></blockquote><br>That was my interpretation.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576967" data-time="1462371583">
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<p>I was puzzled by that too Cato.<br><br><strong>Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions.<br><br>
I don't know. I guess after 27 years of evidence appraisal even the most threadbare trace of causality gets explored.</strong><br><br>
I been thinking about the images and details in that article all day though. That lady that lost 2 daughters<br><br>
Poor buggers. I hope this stuff this week helps them. I'm sure it does in some ways.</p>
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<p> I don't know. I would hope that is the case but it could also appear to be something of his own agenda. That would be a shame as it would degrade what is a great piece of journalism and in so many ways an incredible story of faith and tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.</p>
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<p>The Duckenfield question is one that I would very much like to hear the answer to, but I fear this is unlikely. There may well be some form of financial compensation that South Yorkshire Police have to cough up but in reality that just comes out of the public purse one way or another, it doesn't really harm the South Yorkshire Police. The protagonists are now all in heir dotage, so any personal culpability is unlikely to get sanctioned but I would dearly love to see those accountable for the continuing cover up brought to book. After all it can be argued that the cover up was still going on until very recently.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="576966" data-time="1462371180">
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<p>Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief. </p>
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<p>Agree, She reminds me of Lawrence Dallaglios mother who campaigned for the truth after her daughters death <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/i-lost-my-daughter-my-friend-1113754.html'>http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/i-lost-my-daughter-my-friend-1113754.html</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="576966" data-time="1462371180">
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<p>Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief. </p>
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<p>this always gets me when she is addressing the the crowd at a hillsborough memorial thanking Rafa Benitez. Rafa supported JFT96 hugely during his time in liverpool and this was the memorial the year after he left Liverpool</p>
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What a fantastic man and an amazing Dad Trevor Hicks is! One of England's very finest.<br><br>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/27/trevor-hicks-on-the-deaths-of-his-daughters-at-hillsborough-ther/'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/27/trevor-hicks-on-the-deaths-of-his-daughters-at-hillsborough-ther/</a> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576901" data-time="1462346632">
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<p>Stop being so precious.<br>
I'm not victim blaming but if you see those fans outside the ground as having no responsibility for their behavior at all then we obviously differ.<br>
Did their behavior cause deaths? No. Did it contribute to the situation, yes.</p>
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<p>Interesting that after 27 years of inquests, investigations and reports that you know what really went on. In fact the largest inquest in British legal history has just found the responsibility lies solely with the Police and David Duckenfield and - importantly - none of the blame lies with the football fans.</p>
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<p>But if you know something different I'm sure David and the South Yorkshire police would love to hear from you.</p> -
<p>Some of you guys are harsh. Are you deliberately not understanding what Crucial is getting at? There is no way in hell he is blaming the victims.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="576991" data-time="1462399597">
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<p>Some of you guys are harsh. Are you deliberately not understanding what Crucial is getting at? There is no way in hell he is blaming the victims.</p>
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<p>He said the fans contributed to what happened. What is the difference between contributing to a tragedy and being at fault for tragedy?</p> -
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<p>He said the fans contributed to what happened. What is the difference between contributing to a tragedy and being at fault for tragedy?</p>
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<p>I can throw a peice of wood on a fire to contribute but not be at fault for starting the fire.</p> -
<p>as in unknowingly contributing? you could do that by being there, in line, adding to the crowd pressure without having an idea of what was going on in the stadium. I think that is the missing piece imo</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="577009" data-time="1462403423"><p>
as in unknowingly contributing? you could do that by being there, in line, adding to the crowd pressure without having an idea of what was going on in the stadium. I think that is the missing piece imo</p></blockquote>
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The people at the back of the crowd wouldn't have known there were people dying at the front , I can't imagine how they felt when they found out what happened . -
<p>Absolutely Jegga, and I think that was part of the (fully justified) collective anger at how the investigation went down. The people that made the mistakes got off while the crowd got blamed indirectly... or directly from some stuff I've read. But to be clear I'm not talking about Crucial's comments as the crowd did contribute by merely being there. But that is poles apart from being at fault or knowingly contributing etc.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="577009" data-time="1462403423">
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<p>as in unknowingly contributing? you could do that by being there, in line, adding to the crowd pressure without having an idea of what was going on in the stadium. I think that is the missing piece imo</p>
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<p>I don't see that it is fair to say the fans contributed to the tragedy just by being there. Obviously, if all 30,000 Liverpool fans had said 'fuck it' and went to the pub that day no one would have died. The fans contribution to the tragedy just arose from fans doing what they are supposed to do - go in and support their team. The point is that the fans who were in line would have had no reasonable expectation that they wanting to go into a football stadium would lead to the deaths of many people. How would anyone know at the time, with no power of hindsight, that they would turn around and walk away. I'm sure thousands of fans subsequently regretted going to the stadium but how were they to know at the time?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="576991" data-time="1462399597">
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<p>Some of you guys are harsh. Are you deliberately not understanding what Crucial is getting at? There is no way in hell he is blaming the victims.</p>
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<p>He also brought up the mob mentality of football fans in his original post. While there was (and is) such a thing as hooliganism, it clearly played no role in the tragedy.</p>
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<p>This tragedy would be repeated anywhere in the world if you had a sold out game, such a shitty stadium and such poor management from officials.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="577013" data-time="1462404262"><p>
Absolutely Jegga, and I think that was part of the (fully justified) collective anger at how the investigation went down. The people that made the mistakes got off while the crowd got blamed indirectly... or directly from some stuff I've read. But to be clear I'm not talking about Crucial's comments as the crowd did contribute by merely being there. But that is poles apart from being at fault or knowingly contributing etc.</p></blockquote>
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I was at concert at the super top in the height of summer and when the support act came out everyone surged forward as they normally do. Didn't think too much of it , it was uncomfortable but I thought it would settle down. The support act had their plug pulled after one song and then I saw unconscious people being hauled over the barrier and someone came out and said we all had to move back or they were cancelling the whole thing . Obviously it's not exactly the same situation but if your back in a crowd and everyone behind you is pushing there's not a hell of a lot you can do. -
<p>Hydro, pretty sure we are on the same page - I was trying to tease out what I <em>think </em>Crucial was trying to get across. I disagree with his point about mob mentality and fully agree with you that this sort of thing could happen at any number of stadia if people fuck up the crowd management side of things.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="577009" data-time="1462403423"><p>as in unknowingly contributing? you could do that by being there, in line, adding to the crowd pressure without having an idea of what was going on in the stadium. I think that is the missing piece imo</p></blockquote><br>That's an idiotic argument: People were crushed by the crowd. If no one was there there wouldn't have been a crowd. Hence the crowd couldn't have crushed anyone.
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<p>Crucial, who in my opinion is a bloody good bugger and no slouch, erred in his first post by apportioning "mobs" and "bad behaviour" - also my opinion.</p>
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<p>I believed the crowd was at fault in some way for years, as did possibly the majority who knew of this tragedy</p>
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<p>Blameworthy or contributing are semantics and the contributing argument could be stretched to involve all manner of things from the Liverpool players (if they hadn't made it to the semis) to the weather if you really want to get theoretical.</p>
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<p>And that's the point of the 27 years these people have put in, in the hope that people don't apportion blame or contributions to the fans and those that died.</p>
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<p>Look at what a guy who has lived the 27 years of hell has to say about this very attitude:</p>
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<p><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">Then the moment is gone. For the coroner is on to Q7: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?â€</span></p>
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<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">This is not just a question of truth now: people’s lives are in the balance. To be unfairly blamed for killing people is an insult so grievous as to seriously disturb the mind. I know of one survivor, “Ianâ€, who lost a friend in pen 3. In 2007, Ian became upset about the controversy generated by the appearance of Kelvin MacKenzie on Newsnight, and a few weeks later he hanged himself. There was Stephen Whittle, who gave his match ticket to a friend, who died. In February 2011, Stephen stepped in front of an express train. Two of my mates who survived pen 3 have tried to kill themselves; both, mercifully, survived. But we know that if this next question goes against us, people will almost certainly take their own lives. The jury cannot know this, of course. I look around at Deb, at Richie, at Damian and Lou. No one looks at me.</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">“It is.â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">People leap to their feet and punch the air. But again, momentary relief, for we are only halfway there. Now, having answered No, the jury are asked a supplementary question: <strong>was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? That “may†sets the threshold so low, we fear the jury are practically being urged to find against us. As Tim Knowles said over an anguished pint a few months ago: “What kind of question is ‘May have?’ I might be found responsible for killing my friends on the basis of a vague, theoretical possibility.â€</strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"><strong>But there is nothing vague about will happen to us: we will be vilified once more – for ever more – by the rightwing media and the police. We will be, for the first time in an official hearing, found culpable in killing our fellow fans. It is not the jury’s fault: they have been bounced into this. But people will die on a Yes, they may have…</strong></p>
<p style="font-family:'Guardian Egyptian Web', 'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;color:rgb(118,118,118);"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">I am sitting down but my knees give way. Tears are falling either side of my nose. The woman with the reassuring voice says “It is.â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">And the place erupts.</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I think we should consider what faults we are apportioning the fans very carefully</span></p>