How many Crusaders in your AB 23?

nzzp

@MN5 said in How many Crusaders in your AB 23?:

@mariner4life said in How many Crusaders in your AB 23?:

i am astounded how many people are happy to keep a limited player prone to red card offences like S Barrett in the 23.

Keeping him there actively stunts the development of players who may have a higher ceiling

His surname is Barrett. Enough said.

I'll have you know we the blues signed the 4th Barrett brother Kane, and managed to wreck him. Retired injured I believe, despite the name.

Edit: Kevin for father of the decade

Old Samurai Jack

Barrett is the inform lock at the moment (esp. at shutting down the opposition's clean ball at lineout) and plays the power game more effectively than anyone else. He does need to stay on the field however.....

gt12

In 2019, this team wasn't good enough to get past England:

The matchday 23 was as follows (marked out those ~~unavailable~~

Joe Moody (44)
Codie Taylor (49)
Nepo Laulala (24)
Brodie Retallick (79)
Samuel Whitelock (116)
Scott Barrett (34)
Ardie Savea (43)
~~Kieran Read - captain~~ (125)
Aaron Smith (90)
Richie Mo’unga (15)
George Bridge (8)
Anton Lienert-Brown (41)
Jack Goodhue (12)
Sevu Reece (6)
Beauden Barrett (81)
Dane Coles (67)
Ofa Tuungafasi (34)
Angus Ta'avao (12)
Patrick Tuipulotu (28)
Sam Cane (66)
T J Perenara (63)
~~Sonny Bill Williams~~ (56)
Jordie Barrett (15)

Almost all of them are still available, but how many of these players are the answer?

I think if we rely on 'experience' (that failed last time), we are actively looking to leave the next WC at the Quarters, and not because of bad refereeing, but simply because we will have a bunch of experienced heads who aren't as good as they were, and even then they weren't good enough.

before people lose their shit, I'm not suggesting we don't use some of these guys, but our tight five (and reserves) are still essentially the same. We have to refresh, now.

Tim

@gt12 Ditching at least four of the tight five from the starting line up, not having Barrett at six, dumping that midfield, getting rid of Mo'unga and Bridge, and not having B Barrett at fullback all seem like straight forward decisions.

taniwharugby

@gt12 while I think the main criticism was SB at 6 and no Cane, IMO Brodie was so far off his game it hugely exaggerated out lack of physicality too...

No point re-hashing that game now though

nzzp

@taniwharugby that untimely injury against the boks was disastrous for us. He came back under cooked and hasn't stepped up since his sabbatical

Tim

Assuming Cane and Savea are locked into the starting line up, we're going to need to be able to create quick ruck ball to make the most of Savea.

1 Hodgman
2 Taukei'aho
3 Tu'ungafasi
4 S Barrett
5 Retallick/Whitelock
6 A Ioane
7 Cane
8 Savea

9 Smith
10 B Barrett
11 Clarke
12 ?
13 R Ioane
14 Jordan
15 J Barrett

16 Taylor (Coles must be too old for the WC now)
17 Moody
18 Would like to see Newell get a go, otherwise toss a coin for Laulala/Lomax
19 ?
20 Papalii
21 Christie (Weber was good last year, off his game this year)
22 Mo'unga
23 ?

It would be great if Tupaea could improve his defence. A lot.

No Quarter

@gt12 I just shake my head at that team. SBarrett at 6, Cane on the bench, Mo'unga starting, Bridge on the wing. Just so stupid.

On experience, a very big fuckup which doesn't get talked about much in that WC is leaving Ben Smith out of the 23 and instead putting Mo'unga at 10 and Beauden at 15 attempting to implement that "duel playmaker" strategy. Putting an absolute rookie at 10 was a huge gamble which backfired spectacularly. If we wanted experience in the most important positions in the backline we had to have Beauden at 10 and Ben Smith at 15.

And it's not like Ben Smith was out of form either, he carved up the 3rd/4th play off as well just to ram home how stupid it was to leave him out.

Kirwan

@Tim Some genuine competition for spots this year, some new blood really putting their hands up.

sparky

@Chester-Draws Picking a captain who isn't the best player available in their position is a luxury the All Blacks can't afford given the competitive nature of contemporary test Rugby and the likely competitive nature of this series. A captain has to earn their place same as anyone else. Right now, Papalii is clearly the best NZ 7. Leadership in Rugby is about a leadership group rather than one individual these days anyway.

Bovidae

As a few others have said, I would be interested to see how Papalii goes at 6 in combination with Cane. He has the size to play there, and wouldn't really have to adjust his game from what he does now.

The fact is that if Papalii is the bench loose forward he would probably come on to play 6 anyway. So why not start him there? Savea is regularly used as a lineout option so I don't believe that would be an issue.

The key remains selecting the correct tight five to allow the loose forwards, and backs to function.

sparky

@gt12 I'd add that the game had moved on since 2019 too. France and Ireland in 2022 are better (and play a more ambition game plan) than England were in 2019.

cgrant

@No-Quarter said in How many Crusaders in your AB 23?:

@gt12 I just shake my head at that team. SBarrett at 6, Cane on the bench, Mo'unga starting, Bridge on the wing. Just so stupid.

Mo'unga had been outstanding against Ireland (QF). Dropping him would have raised eyebrows.

MN5

@sparky said in How many Crusaders in your AB 23?:

@Chester-Draws Picking a captain who isn't the best player available in their position is a luxury the All Blacks can't afford given the competitive nature of contemporary test Rugby and the likely competitive nature of this series. A captain has to earn their place same as anyone else. Right now, Papalii is clearly the best NZ 7. Leadership in Rugby is about a leadership group rather than one individual these days anyway.

Indeed. This is not 2000 and Cane is NOT Todd Blackadder.

Nepia

@nzzp said in How many Crusaders in your AB 23?:

Experience counts.

Experience at trundling off the field after another card?

Nepia

@sparky said in How many Crusaders in your AB 23?:

@Chester-Draws Picking a captain who isn't the best player available in their position is a luxury the All Blacks can't afford given the competitive nature of contemporary test Rugby and the likely competitive nature of this series. A captain has to earn their place same as anyone else. Right now, Papalii is clearly the best NZ 7. Leadership in Rugby is about a leadership group rather than one individual these days anyway.

Let's not go overboard with Papali'i, he had an awesome game but he hasn't been that good all year. Add to that Cane has been great in his last few games. We'll need to see how they both go during the combined comp before declaring Papali'i number 1.