Orlando shooting + terrorism thread
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<p>nah, it's gone man</p>
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<p>I deleted the duplicate.</p>
<p>Something might have gone awry with it. I don't delete posts, I hide them so other mods can still see them. If was going to delete posts out of spite in this thread... you think I would have chosen that one and not reprobates? Seriously?</p>
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<p>If you don't want posts deleted, stop posting stuff that breaks TSF rules.</p>
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<p>I can assure other mods have hidden my posts and will do so again, just as I have theirs,.... but you know.. you wouldn't know as you cannot see them!</p>
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<p>I also usually post in the mod forum explaining the thread and reason so other mods can check it out. </p>
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<p>You seem to think I am the only mod who thinks that a good number of your posts cross the line. Good luck with that. You have been banned before, and I argued against it at the time, luckily for you most of the mods that thought you were a complete piston wristed gibbon are no longer very active. I hope they come back. </p>
<p>Usually I wouldn't bother pointing out the value of other posters posts, those in glass houses, but if you want to discuss moderating, perhaps you need to look at yourself before anything else.</p>
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<p>Any other discussion on moderating will be removed.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="592950" data-time="1467246517">
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<p>To be fair if we all stopped posting shit the fern would cease to exist.</p>
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<p>To be fair I edited my post to account for that.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="592905" data-time="1467239909">
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<p>Now you are just making stuff up to suit your narrative. I am very careful to attack the ideology.</p>
<p>It would seem you are equally careful to ignore what people say and just make stuff up to suit your desire to appease....</p>
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<p>All else fails.. just yell bigot.. ever the way of the regressive left.</p>
<p>Would you like to post .. lets say 10 blanket statements I have made about Muslims? According to your narrative I do it often, so it wont be hard. heck is 10 to difficult for you... lets start off with just a few then.</p>
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<p>Unless of course like your regressive left buddies you are just making shit up and yelling bigot to just shut down discussion?</p>
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<p>i'm not going to waste time doing that, but off the top of my head in the last page or so - 'poor muslims...'; nick's reference to your previous 'eat bacon and draw a picture of mohammed' crap; 'won't someone think of the poor people who follow...'.</p>
<p>those are simply attacks on largely decent people - why shouldn't we feel sorry for decent people who are being treated badly because others can't separate doctrine and people? you are saying that they shouldn't get any sympathy because they are muslim - it is bigotry.</p>
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<p>if that's you being careful i wouldn't like to see you being careless.</p>
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<p>note: i agree that people being killed is worse than anyone being persecuted over their religion, but that does not make it right - and it is not one or the other.</p>
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<p>note 2: the victims being largely muslim, i.e. istanbul, seems to provoke a bit of silence from everyone eh? </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="592980" data-time="1467251982">
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<p>i'm not going to waste time doing that, but off the top of my head in the last page or so - 'poor muslims...'; nick's reference to your previous 'eat bacon and draw a picture of mohammed' crap; 'won't someone think of the poor people who follow...'.</p>
<p>those are simply attacks on largely decent people - why shouldn't we feel sorry for decent people who are being treated badly because others can't separate doctrine and people? you are saying that they shouldn't get any sympathy because they are muslim - it is bigotry.</p>
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<p>if that's you being careful i wouldn't like to see you being careless.</p>
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<p>note: i agree that people being killed is worse than anyone being persecuted over their religion, but that does not make it right - and it is not one or the other.</p>
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<p>note 2: the victims being largely muslim, i.e. istanbul, seems to provoke a bit of silence from everyone eh? </p>
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<p>Waste your time backing up your assertion? Why am I not surprised? As I suspect, you a just made up a straw man to argue against because you cannot argue against my disdain of the Islam ideology. I don't blame all Muslims for the actions of a few, that is the fact, not your desperate narrative. I do blame Islam for the actions of the few though. And dont use NTA's version of what I said as some sort of reference for what I actually said.. is that seriously the best you have?</p>
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<p>Where did I say they shouldn't get any sympathy? I just don't have much for them, the supposed hassle they get is trivial compared to the misery their ideology has inflicted and does inflict currently. </p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">you cross the line between attacking the doctrine and the people more often than not,
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<p>Unmitigated complete and utter bullshit. You will just continue repeating it until you convince yourself. Facts and what people actually say have no relevance to you?</p>
<p>Just keep screaming bigot.. it is about all you have... oh that and making sure threads turn into threads about posters and not the topic.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="592564" data-time="1467084224">
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<p><img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl-rEZVVYAQXd96.jpg" alt="Cl-rEZVVYAQXd96.jpg"></p>
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<p>From the NYC march over the Orlando massacre.</p>
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<p>Yeah blame the Republicans.. not the Islamic Democrat shooter. </p>
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<p>I would love to know what 'logic' these people were following in connecting the Republican party with a disturbed Muslim massacring Homosexuals that his religion wants dead..</p>
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<p>Oh yeah.... and Hilary Clinton marched with them as well... stay classy Hilary.</p>
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<p>I can only imagine the media reaction if Trump marched with a bunch of rednecks with a banner.. "Islam hate Kills!"</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/hillary-clinton-new-york-pride-parade-orlando'>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/hillary-clinton-new-york-pride-parade-orlando</a></p>
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<p>That is seriously fucked up. There was also an instance where a black lives matter activist hijacked a memorial service in Orlando. Apparently it's racist to not include other minorities when mourning the massacre of another minority group.</p>
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<p>I'm getting pretty disturbed by these types of developments. I vividly remember when I first learnt about Martin Luther King at school and his speech about "...not be judged by the colour of their skin but the content of their character". In other words, he yearned for a world when race or creed wasn't a factor. Yet instead of saying hey we're the human race, lets all be judged equally and be equally held to account for what we say or do, there now seems to be an almost psychopathic focus on highlighting the differences between people. Those that are apparently not sufficiently aware of these differences require "education" to have this rammed down their throats. This cultural appropriation bullshit is also highly disturbing.</p> -
<p>why do you keep saying that i am screeching bigot, or screaming it, or yelling it? it is quite strange, i'm doing no such thing - i'm simply using a word which means what you are doing.</p>
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<p>you see, the thing is that i have a disdain for the literal content of the koran myself, but i find it quite easy to not extrapolate that. let's take this sentence:</p>
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<p><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Where did I say they shouldn't get any sympathy? I just don't have much for them, the supposed hassle they get is trivial compared to the misery their ideology has inflicted and does inflict currently. </span></em></p>
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<p>'won't someone think of the poor people...' and 'poor muslims... my heart bleeds' are not exactly advocating sympathy, you can play semantics if you like, but why?</p>
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<p>the word 'supposed'. they do get hassle. you put 'supposed' in there to try to suggest that it might actually not exist. it does exist. why do that?</p>
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<p>one thing being worse than another does not make the less bad thing okay - why should there be a comparison?</p>
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<p>why don't you have sympathy for them? good people are being treated badly. do you not have sympathy for them simply because of their religion? (i.e. bigotry?)</p>
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<p>it is not 'their ideology'. if it were, then they would all be out there killing people. the psychos killing people do not have the same ideology as the normal, peaceful majority. they are different. pretending they are the same is, well, bigotry i guess?</p>
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<p> </p><p>why don't you have sympathy for them? they are being treated badly.</p> <div> </div>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="593003" data-time="1467256596">
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<p>it is not 'their ideology'. if it were, then they would all be out there killing people.<strong> the psychos killing people do not have the same ideology as the normal, peaceful majority</strong>. they are different. pretending they are the same is, well, bigotry i guess?</p>
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<p>I've asked this before but you didn't answer, when you say majority are you talking about Muslims that live in Western countries? Or do you include people in countries like Saudi Arabia?</p>
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<p>Muslims in Western countries have been forced to reform their faith as if they didn't they'd be in jail. In other countries... not so much. If you are openly gay in Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, you are a dead man walking, as the majority of the population will believe you should be punished by death. So in my mind that makes the majority of people in those countries psychos. Is that bigotry? I don't really care, I don't have a lot of time for words that offer religion protection from criticism. I know that's not the original intent of that word, but that is how it is used by many people now.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="593003" data-time="1467256596">
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<p>why do you keep saying that i am screeching bigot, or screaming it, or yelling it? it is quite strange, i'm doing no such thing - i'm simply using a word which means what you are doing.</p>
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<p>you see, the thing is that i have a disdain for the literal content of the koran myself, but i find it quite easy to not extrapolate that. let's take this sentence:</p>
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<p><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Where did I say they shouldn't get any sympathy? I just don't have much for them, the supposed hassle they get is trivial compared to the misery their ideology has inflicted and does inflict currently. </span></em></p>
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<p>'won't someone think of the poor people...' and 'poor muslims... my heart bleeds' are not exactly advocating sympathy, you can play semantics if you like, but why?</p>
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<p>the word 'supposed'. they do get hassle. you put 'supposed' in there to try to suggest that it might actually not exist. it does exist. why do that?</p>
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<p>one thing being worse than another does not make the less bad thing okay - why should there be a comparison?</p>
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<p>why don't you have sympathy for them? good people are being treated badly. do you not have sympathy for them simply because of their religion? (i.e. bigotry?)</p>
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<p>it is not 'their ideology'. if it were, then they would all be out there killing people. the psychos killing people do not have the same ideology as the normal, peaceful majority. they are different. pretending they are the same is, well, bigotry i guess?</p>
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<p>why don't you have sympathy for them? they are being treated badly.</p>
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<p>Because I am not saying anything bigoted no matter how much you try to label. You claim things I never said, refuse to back up your assertions. It is absolutely classic regressive left bullshit. Not having much sympathy for people who follow a ideology preaches hate.. when they get criticized for it, is not bigotry. Islam is not above criticism, people who support the ideology are not above criticism. </p>
<p>You are trying the classic tactic of making about the poster and not the topic. Through in some straw men and you have a full house of regressive left bingo.</p>
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<p>You can call it semantics if you like, I dont. What is far more illustrative id you just making stuff up.</p>
<p>My query still stands reprobate, put up. You wont, because you cannot. That should tell you something, but your cloak of sanctimony is so strong you think it is fine to just make up stuff and attribute it to other posters?</p>
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<p>And you really dont know what bigotry is if you think a lack of sympathy is indicative of it. A lack tolerance is a signal of it. I am tolerant of Muslims, I am not tolerant of the ideology . Of course you have already proven you havent actually read my posts on this topic. You rather just yell BIGOT and pay no attnetion to what people actually say. </p>
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<p>"<span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">it is not 'their ideology'. if it were, then they would all be out there killing people. "</span></p>
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<p><span>More complete and utter apologist bullshit. It is their ideology, or are you now saying that their no instructions to kill Homosexuals under that ideology? Just because some dont.. means nothing when it comes to criticisng the ideology. </span></p>
<p><span>If Islam is not the ideology of Muslims...whose ideology is it? </span></p>
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<p><span>It is do funny that an apologist for the most bigoted religion in existence .. accuses others of bigotry when they criticise.</span></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="593012" data-time="1467258543">
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<p>I've asked this before but you didn't answer, when you say majority are you talking about Muslims that live in Western countries? Or do you include people in countries like Saudi Arabia?</p>
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<p>Muslims in Western countries have been forced to reform their faith as if they didn't they'd be in jail. In other countries... not so much. If you are openly gay in Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, you are a dead man walking, as the majority of the population will believe you should be punished by death. So in my mind that makes the majority of people in those countries psychos. Is that bigotry? I don't really care, I don't have a lot of time for words that offer religion protection from criticism. I know that's not the original intent of that word, but that is how it is used by many people now.</p>
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<p>sorry mate - certainly i'm speaking mostly of those in western countries, but it doesn't only apply there. indonesia, malaysia, turkey for example contain loads of wonderful tolerant people. i've never been to saudi arabia or afghanistan, but i've also never been anywhere where the majority of people i have met would advocate violence. the governments are a different story. but these are poor countries - we have the luxury of living in an exceptionally progressive, liberal society by world standards: homosexuals might get harassed somewhere like indonesia, but it's not against the law, and they were (still are?) discriminated against in probably all western countries until very recently in the scheme of things.</p>
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<p>anyway, the reason for my focusing on 'here' is that it is those muslims living in western countries that are going to suffer from islamic scaremongering, because johnny redneck isn't going to pop off to the middle east to give the blokes there a hard time, he's going to be a fluffybunny to the peaceful family down the road. </p>
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<p>it is far from my intent to exempt religion from criticism, go for your life on that - but since people can be muslim and not subscribe to the bits you are criticising, i think it is more productive to criticise the specifics rather than just saying the whole thing is fucked. i also think poverty and lack of education are the real problems here: christian africa is just as fucked as muslim africa, and a world away from the way we live in western countries. 'our' christianity evolved, some islam has, more needs to happen but i just don't see generalised intolerance as the solution. </p>
<p>the systems in place that oppress women in saudi arabia are a disgrace - and nobody should be able to hide behind religion as a reason for oppressing people - something desperately needs to be done about that. but as long as people are not hurting others, they ought to be able to believe what they want. except the anti-vaxxers of course, fuck those guys.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="593012" data-time="1467258543">
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<p>Muslims in Western countries have been forced to reform their faith as if they didn't they'd be in jail. In other countries... not so much. If you are openly gay in Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, you are a dead man walking, as the majority of the population will believe you should be punished by death. So in my mind that makes the majority of people in those countries psychos. Is that bigotry? I don't really care, I don't have a lot of time for words that offer religion protection from criticism. I know that's not the original intent of that word, but that is how it is used by many people now.</p>
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<p>That is to make the assumption that all Muslims WANT to live under strict Sharia Law, or something similarly oppressive. If that was the case then every single Muslim would move to a country that practices such a legal and religious alignment.</p>
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<p>Again, this fails to differentiate between what is written and what is practised/preached. You can't say "Well Islam is fucked because Saudi Arabia" because that is to denigrate all Muslims who don't live there, and don't WANT to live there.</p>
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<p>There are many people of all religions who do not live the laws of their religion to the letter. If anyone wants to practice a version of their religion that doesn't break the secular law, then that is "freedom of religion".</p>
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<p>Islam has some of the worst scum doing things for Islam. But that Reformation that Baron is clamouring for actually can't happen overnight, and particularly in a non-hierarchical structure with the schisms that it has.</p>
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<p>This is going around in circles. I'm just glad that all the Muslims at work today decided it wasn't my day to die or be enslaved as an infidel.... y'know, because they're all just WAITING for their chance to fuck my shit up...</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593020" data-time="1467260515">
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<p>Because I am not saying anything bigoted no matter how much you try to label. You claim things I never said, refuse to back up your assertions. It is absolutely classic regressive left bullshit. Not having much sympathy for people who follow a ideology preaches hate.. when they get criticized for it, is not bigotry. Islam is not above criticism, people who support the ideology are not above criticism. </p>
<p>You are trying the classic tactic of making about the poster and not the topic. Through in some straw men and you have a full house of regressive left bingo.</p>
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<p>You can call it semantics if you like, I dont. What is far more illustrative id you just making stuff up.</p>
<p>My query still stands reprobate, put up. You wont, because you cannot. That should tell you something, but your cloak of sanctimony is so strong you think it is fine to just make up stuff and attribute it to other posters?</p>
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<p>And you really dont know what bigotry is if you think a lack of sympathy is indicative of it. A lack tolerance is a signal of it. I am tolerant of Muslims, I am not tolerant of the ideology . Of course you have already proven you havent actually read my posts on this topic. You rather just yell BIGOT and pay no attnetion to what people actually say. </p>
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<p>"<span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">it is not 'their ideology'. if it were, then they would all be out there killing people. "</span></p>
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<p>More complete and utter apologist bullshit. It is their ideology, or are you now saying that their no instructions to kill Homosexuals under that ideology? Just because some dont.. means nothing when it comes to criticisng the ideology. </p>
<p>If Islam is not the ideology of Muslims...whose ideology is it? </p>
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<p>It is do funny that an apologist for the most bigoted religion in existence .. accuses others of bigotry when they criticise.</p>
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<p>okay then. you suggested in an older thread that muslims coming to new zealand should have to eat pork and draw a picture of mohammed to be allowed in. if that is not being intolerant of other people's beliefs i don't know what is. you literally want to force people to act against their own beliefs - specific beliefs that are not hurting anyone - how on earth does that fit in with you saying above "I am tolerant of Muslims"?</p>
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<p>an ideology is simply a set of ideas and beliefs. i think it is pretty obvious that peaceful muslims have quite a different set of ideas to ISIS members. they may both call themselves muslim, but their ideologies are very different. you seem to want to put them all in one basket, which is wrong, and unfair.</p>
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<p>labels? apologist? regressive left? </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="593034" data-time="1467265230">
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<p>okay then. you suggested in an older thread that muslims coming to new zealand should have to eat pork and draw a picture of mohammed to be allowed in. if that is not being intolerant of other people's beliefs i don't know what is. you literally want to force people to act against their own beliefs - specific beliefs that are not hurting anyone - how on earth does that fit in with you saying above "I am tolerant of Muslims"?</p>
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<p>an ideology is simply a set of ideas and beliefs. i think it is pretty obvious that peaceful muslims have quite a different set of ideas to ISIS members. they may both call themselves muslim, but their ideologies are very different. you seem to want to put them all in one basket, which is wrong, and unfair.</p>
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<p>labels? apologist? regressive left? </p>
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<p>Yes apologist, regressive left. You wanted to make this about me, you started with the name calling and absurd narrative. You are classic regressive left. You wanted to start dishing out pejorative terms, learn to take some back.</p>
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<p>I said that in a response to someone asking how a ban on Islamic immigrants from coming to NZ. Is wanting to control immigration of people who support an ideology of Homophobia, racism and sexism .. bigoted? Is giving skilled migrants also bigoted? What about the good character requirement.. also bigoted?</p>
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<p>I am not putting muslims into baskets, that is your modus operandi, I am criticising an ideology and those that follow it, support it, refuse to criticise it or attack critics of it.</p>
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<p>I am still waiting for your proof of assertion. It should be soooo easy.... unless you were just attacking a straw man?</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">you cross the line between attacking the doctrine and the people more often than not,
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593033" data-time="1467264973">
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<p>That is to make the assumption that all Muslims WANT to live under strict Sharia Law, or something similarly oppressive. If that was the case then every single Muslim would move to a country that practices such a legal and religious alignment.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Again, this fails to differentiate between what is written and what is practised/preached. You can't say "Well Islam is fucked because Saudi Arabia" because that is to denigrate all Muslims who don't live there, and don't WANT to live there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There are many people of all religions who do not live the laws of their religion to the letter. If anyone wants to practice a version of their religion that doesn't break the secular law, then that is "freedom of religion".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam has some of the worst scum doing things for Islam. But that Reformation that Baron is clamouring for actually can't happen overnight, and particularly in a non-hierarchical structure with the schisms that it has.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This is going around in circles. I'm just glad that all the Muslims at work today decided it wasn't my day to die or be enslaved as an infidel.... y'know, because they're all just WAITING for their chance to fuck my shit up...</p>
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<p>That I am clamouring for? Yes.. the question is .. why arent you? You dont think it needs it? Your tolerance for an ideology that preaches murder and homophobia is very high. You also support the KKK?</p>
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<p>And any reformation needs to start somewhere, and that isnt being help by the western apologists.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593039" data-time="1467266072">
<div><strong>I am not putting muslims into baskets</strong>, that is your modus operandi,<strong> I am criticising an ideology and those that follow it, support it</strong>, refuse to criticise it or attack critics of it.<br><p> </p>
<p>I am still waiting for your proof of assertion. It should be soooo easy.... unless you were just attacking a straw man?</p>
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<p>Isn't that attacking Muslims as an entire group?</p>