Electric Vehicles
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@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
"It's expected V2G will be standard on all new EVs by 2025."
Bidirectional chargers for EVs are finally approved in Australia, and they'll be a game changer
A new kind of charger that allows an electric vehicle to be used as a giant home battery is close to going on sale in Australia. So how does it work and is it worth the price?
I understand someone got this working in South Australia but had to go through a considerable amount of red tape so this being connected en masse (well, EV en masse) by 2025 sounds optimistic to me.
ah, here it is, there was a trial mentioned in December
Electric cars to power South Australian homes in new trial
South Australia has become the first jurisdiction to allow private electric-car owners to send their battery’s energy back into their homes.
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@nostrildamus said in Electric Vehicles:
@JC said in Electric Vehicles:
@nostrildamus ... and yet, they can't make a car that I'd actually want to drive. Sales in America are of course important for their profitability but the US has honestly given us very little in the way of decent cars. Sometimes iconic, sure, but not often objectively good.
Toyota you mean? Yep, not known for the driving experience.
No, Tesla.
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Just read a review of the latest Kia EV
$100k + on-roads
But the numbers...
430kw. 0-100 in 3.5 seconds. 450-odd range
Out performs the similar porsche for 160k less -
@mariner4life said in Electric Vehicles:
Just read a review of the latest Kia EV
$100k + on-roads
But the numbers...
430kw. 0-100 in 3.5 seconds. 450-odd range
Out performs the similar porsche for 160k lessI just bought a Kia. Brand spanking new.
It was a bottom of the range Cerato, and it cost $28k
I love it.
And yet I really cannot imagine anyone spending $110k + for a Kia. The range might be solid but it’s not spectacular compared to competitors. And does acceleration in an EV really matter? How often do you get to accelerate to 100km in 4 seconds?
And does it matter if it’s 3 seconds or 4?
I remain firmly of the view that these mainstream companies should be 100% focussed on getting costs down and building a $30k model that performs like my shithouse Cerato.
Decent looking vehicle
Good mileage
Affordable
0-100 in about a minute -
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
@mariner4life said in Electric Vehicles:
Just read a review of the latest Kia EV
$100k + on-roads
But the numbers...
430kw. 0-100 in 3.5 seconds. 450-odd range
Out performs the similar porsche for 160k lessI just bought a Kia. Brand spanking new.
It was a bottom of the range Cerato, and it cost $28k
I love it.
And yet I really cannot imagine anyone spending $110k + for a Kia. The range might be solid but it’s not spectacular compared to competitors. And does acceleration in an EV really matter? How often do you get to accelerate to 100km in 4 seconds?
And does it matter if it’s 3 seconds or 4?
I remain firmly of the view that these mainstream companies should be 100% focussed on getting costs down and building a $30k model that performs like my shithouse Cerato.
Decent looking vehicle
Good mileage
Affordable
0-100 in about a minuteYou raise a good point. Ultimately cars are your thing, or they aren’t.
I’ve driven the Kia and the Taycan. Is it worth 2.6x? Arguable. However …
Once you take depreciation in the equation, I’ll argue the Taycan will be about 50% more to own for 3 years …. And it will be totally worth it.
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@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
And yet I really cannot imagine anyone spending $110k + for a Kia. The range might be solid but it’s not spectacular compared to competitors. And does acceleration in an EV really matter? How often do you get to accelerate to 100km in 4 seconds?
Every traffic light.
And does it matter if it’s 3 seconds or 4?
Does to the loser.
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@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
And yet I really cannot imagine anyone spending $110k + for a Kia. The range might be solid but it’s not spectacular compared to competitors. And does acceleration in an EV really matter? How often do you get to accelerate to 100km in 4 seconds?
Every traffic light.
And does it matter if it’s 3 seconds or 4?
Does to the loser.
safe to say I ain’t winning many drag races in my Cerato 😂
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@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
And yet I really cannot imagine anyone spending $110k + for a Kia. The range might be solid but it’s not spectacular compared to competitors. And does acceleration in an EV really matter? How often do you get to accelerate to 100km in 4 seconds?
Every traffic light.
And does it matter if it’s 3 seconds or 4?
Does to the loser.
The howl of my exhaust compensates somewhat.
Question still stands tho …. Who will pay 110k for a Kia?
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@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
And yet I really cannot imagine anyone spending $110k + for a Kia. The range might be solid but it’s not spectacular compared to competitors. And does acceleration in an EV really matter? How often do you get to accelerate to 100km in 4 seconds?
Every traffic light.
And does it matter if it’s 3 seconds or 4?
Does to the loser.
The howl of my exhaust compensates somewhat.
Question still stands tho …. Who will pay 110k for a Kia?
I think there is a niche market for it. It took a while for people to stomach the idea Japanese cars were worth serious coin. Korean cars are entering that phase. I saw an interview with Ford's CEO who said of all the manufacturers, he sees KIA as the most interesting and competitive with what they're building now.
They managed to sell the Stinger and EVs come with a known price premium. They'll move, especially for people who want premium EV experience and can't get their hands on other options. I mean Teslas were selling for more. Teslas ffs. Cars with worse panel gaps than a Friday built Trabant, and engineering effort devoted to fart noises...
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@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
I have often wondered why car batteries can't be used to help power households.
I.e - be a Powerwall.
They should be a key part of running a renewables based grid / household consumption. So energy is stored when generation is strong (wind, solar, tidal etc) and then when it's weak households drain the car battery before applying to the grid.
It all seems fairly basic maths to me.
That’s because it IS bleedingly obvious. Can’t speak for other countries but the issues here are:
- not enough EVs
- not enough smart meters
- electricity retailers doing their best to nullify the benefit of resi solar and batteries / EVs by extension
As always, lots of vested interests and political point scoring getting in the way of doing anything productive.
Micro-grids in a community make so much sense to me.
It's obvious? It's not obvious to me why this colossal energy storage thing in your car can't be used to power your house during peak load / expensive times then charged during reduced load times.
Yes, this can only work for those with electric cars & houses, but thats gotta be a sizeable portion.
Understood on the vested interests. I just find it annoying that here in the UK, there is wind generation capacity for up to around 75% of requirements ... but as soon as the wind stops blowing (literally) it drops to zero. Yes, I understand your point about micro grids, but that isn't a quick / cheap fix. Where as taking advantage of these huge power reserves parked on your driveway feels like it is.
Umm, because most people setting up any sort of self energy system for their dwelling would already have storage capacity and at some point you need that vehicle battery so you can use the vehicle.
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@Crucial said in Electric Vehicles:
@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
I have often wondered why car batteries can't be used to help power households.
I.e - be a Powerwall.
They should be a key part of running a renewables based grid / household consumption. So energy is stored when generation is strong (wind, solar, tidal etc) and then when it's weak households drain the car battery before applying to the grid.
It all seems fairly basic maths to me.
That’s because it IS bleedingly obvious. Can’t speak for other countries but the issues here are:
- not enough EVs
- not enough smart meters
- electricity retailers doing their best to nullify the benefit of resi solar and batteries / EVs by extension
As always, lots of vested interests and political point scoring getting in the way of doing anything productive.
Micro-grids in a community make so much sense to me.
It's obvious? It's not obvious to me why this colossal energy storage thing in your car can't be used to power your house during peak load / expensive times then charged during reduced load times.
Yes, this can only work for those with electric cars & houses, but thats gotta be a sizeable portion.
Understood on the vested interests. I just find it annoying that here in the UK, there is wind generation capacity for up to around 75% of requirements ... but as soon as the wind stops blowing (literally) it drops to zero. Yes, I understand your point about micro grids, but that isn't a quick / cheap fix. Where as taking advantage of these huge power reserves parked on your driveway feels like it is.
Umm, because most people setting up any sort of self energy system for their dwelling would already have storage capacity and at some point you need that vehicle battery so you can use the vehicle.
You being deliberately obtuse?
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@antipodean Kia make great cars. They look superb, are well made and are very well marketed.
Dynamically, they are not at the German level, but that matters little when they are 20-30pct cheaper.
I just think, UK wise, options at 70k are vast. I’m sure there will be a few lease / fleet deals going tho which will see many hit the road.
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@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
. I’m sure there will be a few lease / fleet deals going tho which will see many hit the road.
Fleet is big for organisations (particularly government) trying to lower their operating cost and carbon footprint. Also becomes a massive lever for establishing a second-hand EV market.
I was looking at novated lease options and EV doesn't work as well as ICEV because maintenance cost is low.
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@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
@Crucial said in Electric Vehicles:
@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
@MajorRage said in Electric Vehicles:
I have often wondered why car batteries can't be used to help power households.
I.e - be a Powerwall.
They should be a key part of running a renewables based grid / household consumption. So energy is stored when generation is strong (wind, solar, tidal etc) and then when it's weak households drain the car battery before applying to the grid.
It all seems fairly basic maths to me.
That’s because it IS bleedingly obvious. Can’t speak for other countries but the issues here are:
- not enough EVs
- not enough smart meters
- electricity retailers doing their best to nullify the benefit of resi solar and batteries / EVs by extension
As always, lots of vested interests and political point scoring getting in the way of doing anything productive.
Micro-grids in a community make so much sense to me.
It's obvious? It's not obvious to me why this colossal energy storage thing in your car can't be used to power your house during peak load / expensive times then charged during reduced load times.
Yes, this can only work for those with electric cars & houses, but thats gotta be a sizeable portion.
Understood on the vested interests. I just find it annoying that here in the UK, there is wind generation capacity for up to around 75% of requirements ... but as soon as the wind stops blowing (literally) it drops to zero. Yes, I understand your point about micro grids, but that isn't a quick / cheap fix. Where as taking advantage of these huge power reserves parked on your driveway feels like it is.
Umm, because most people setting up any sort of self energy system for their dwelling would already have storage capacity and at some point you need that vehicle battery so you can use the vehicle.
You being deliberately obtuse?
No. Point is made in one of those articles. Bi-directional chargers sound great but when then cost in similar to a home battery then spending a little more and setting up some renewable energy into a home battery makes sense as you will be creating the energy that you store
IF the bidirectional charger was considerably cheaper then the value may be greater.
The other point is the practical use. For days that you don't intend to use the vehicle (or only use a small part of its storage for driving) then using it to power the dishwasher/washing machine in the morning after overnight charging at cheaper rates makes sense but surely it is easier to set appliances to run off a smart network at those cheaper times anyway and cut out the middle man?
If the car isn't at home (eg you have driven it to work) then it isn't even there at peak times.
Then then is the very real possibility that peak/off peak power becomes either a thing of the past or a constantly fluctuating thing with makes it very hard to plan around when drawing from the car is beneficial. -
I don’t think our thought processes are compatible. You are only talking hurdles.
This is a very real solution to an existing problem.
@Crucial said in Electric Vehicles:
No. Point is made in one of those articles. Bi-directional chargers sound great but when then cost in similar to a home battery then spending a little more and setting up some renewable energy into a home battery makes sense as you will be creating the energy that you store
The tech is expensive on the car side as not many cars come equipped from the factory. Thst is my entire point. Houses don’t care where they draw from.
IF the bidirectional charger was considerably cheaper then the value may be greater.
Naive to think Tesla don’t have this tech already at affordable levels. It’s just basic electrical flow.
The other point is the practical use. For days that you don't intend to use the vehicle (or only use a small part of its storage for driving) then using it to power the dishwasher/washing machine in the morning after overnight charging at cheaper rates makes sense but surely it is easier to set appliances to run off a smart network at those cheaper times anyway and cut out the middle man?
Absolutely. Additionally, only heat your home when it’s warm, cook dinner after 10pm and watch TV between 3 and 4am only.
If the car isn't at home (eg you have driven it to work) then it isn't even there at peak times.
But what if the car is?
Then then is the very real possibility that peak/off peak power becomes either a thing of the past or a constantly fluctuating thing with makes it very hard to plan around when drawing from the car is beneficial.
Not even going to bother with this one.
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Lithium sector is struggling to solve its big problem
Bullish new forecasts for lithium demand have coincided with setbacks to new supply projects. That’s ultimately good for prices, but not for the electric vehicle sector’s big ambitions.
Jan 30, 2023 – 11.16am
It’s unlikely that many Australian investors are following the travels of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. But his current trip to South America underscores a new front in the global race for arguably the world’s hottest commodity: lithium.
Scholz signed an agreement with Argentina that is designed to help German industry secure lithium supplies from the South American giant. On Sunday, the chancellor was in Chile, the world’s second-largest supplier of lithium after Australia, seeking a similar deal.
Surging electric vehicle production will boost lithium demand, according to one of the sector’s giants. David Rowe
Currently, the bulk of the world’s lithium chemicals is scooped up by China’s battery manufacturing sector. But Germany – home to car giants such as VW, which wants to invest $80 billion in electric vehicles between now and 2026 – needs a slice of that action.
More broadly, Scholz’s trip again highlights questions over the size of the gap between lithium supply and demand, and how and when it will get filled.
The surge in ASX-listed lithium stocks since the start of the year – Pilbara Minerals is up 35 per cent since the start of the year, Mineral Resources is up 23 per cent and Liontown Resources has gained 32 per cent – speaks in part to a return to the global burst of speculative bullishness, and in part to a new data suggesting lithium demand over the next decade could be even stronger than expected.
Last week, US-based lithium giant Albemarle lifted its forecasts for lithium demand by about 15 per cent, putting demand at 1.8 million tonnes and demand in 2025 and at 3.7 million tonnes in 2030, up from 0.8 million tonnes in 2022.
The biggest swing factor: electric vehicles
The Biden administration’s Inflation Reduction Act, which includes big incentives for renewable energy including batteries, has contributed to Albemarle’s new demand estimate.But the biggest swing factor is sharply rising electric vehicle production, which Albemarle expects will leap from 11.2 million units in 2022 to 15.7 million in 2023, and to 46.9 million by 2030.
(Interestingly, Citi believes demand in Australia for EVs is set to grow in 2023 thanks to the federal government’s new Electric Car Discount, which the bank believes has the potential to add as much as 11 per cent upside to novated leasing volumes, given the spike of EV-related inquiries fleet managers have reported.)
Albemarle’s new lithium demand estimate is seen as bullish by some commentators. Respected research house Benchmark Intelligence has a base case for demand of 2.4 million tonnes in 2030.
But chief executive Simon Moores points out that even at this more modest level of demand, supply is likely to remain short, given Benchmark’s base case for supply in 2030 is 2.1 million tonnes.
Even that 12.5 per cent gap between supply and demand is the equivalent of at least six lithium mines, and 50 per cent the size of the entire industry in 2022.
But Moore describes the 54 per cent gap between Benchmark’s base case for supply and Albemarle’s bullish view of demand as “the difference between automotive EV dreams and the reality of what the industry can likely achieve”.
Miners struggling with demand
Indeed, the difficulties in closing the supply gap have been highlighted and appear to be growing. While analysts expect supply of lithium to increase by between 20 per cent and 40 per cent in 2023, miners are already struggling to meet their production plans.Macquarie says that over the last two months, four ASX-listed lithium companies have “announced setbacks to their respective projects, reflected in either a higher capital budget or a delay of commissioning”.
Liontown Resources has increased the forecast capital budget for its Kathleen Valley by 64 per cent, with Macquarie warning “scheduling risk remains”.
In December, Pilbara Minerals increased the budget for one of its expansion projects by 36 per cent. Allkem recently announced a delay with its Sal De Vida. And last week, Mineral Resources announced delays to the expansion of its Mount Marion project, which has been pushed back six months.
Of course, the delays at Mineral Resources haven’t stopped the company’s shares from testing record levels. And at an individual company level, Macquaire sees a silver lining to these supply challenges.
“Supply response will lag demand, resulting in a market deficit and elevated lithium prices. In addition, we believe the capex upgrades could also shift the cost curve upward, translating to higher lithium prices in the long term.”
But for the EV industry, and the world’s emissions reduction goals, the challenges in closing this supply gap are not going away. As Moores says, it won’t be easy taking the lithium and EV sectors from start-up mode to scale-up mode.
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@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@voodoo said in Electric Vehicles:
And yet I really cannot imagine anyone spending $110k + for a Kia. The range might be solid but it’s not spectacular compared to competitors. And does acceleration in an EV really matter? How often do you get to accelerate to 100km in 4 seconds?
Every traffic light.
And does it matter if it’s 3 seconds or 4?
Does to the loser.
Also worth remembering that acceleration isn't always about 0-X...
But - when deciding to pass somebody, 90-X...
One of the advantages of the bike that I've always taken for granted, is the ability to just pull out, crank the throttle, and be past somebody near instantly.
A few weeks ago, I was behind a Tesla, in turn behind a couple of (relatively) slow moving vehicles.
On a small straight, I was just about to pull out and blast it, when the Tesla did also... and I suddenly realised I wasn't the only one with that advantage any more.
I followed that Tesla for several dozen km, and then he followed me for several dozen more... and I gotta say... an EV with a driver willing to go at a decent clip - nullifies most of the motorbike's advantages. -
@Kruse as a motorcyclist I always try to keep in mind what disparity exists between what I'm riding and what they're driving.
Overtaking a proper performance car on my adv bike is a dumb idea if they want to get a move on too.
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@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@Kruse as a motorcyclist I always try to keep in mind what disparity exists between what I'm riding and what they're driving.
Overtaking a proper performance car on my adv bike is a dumb idea if they want to get a move on too.
Good big vehicle beats good little vehicle.
