Goalkicker
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The All Black goal kicker moving forward.
Obviously 2016 World player of the year Beauden Barret will be a fixture in the team.
But we need to talk about goal kicking.
In the test 3 thread, the are comments like "where is the rule that your 10 also has to be the goalkicker ..." etc. this is true, but ........ I'm very queasy about not having like for like swaps between players in whatever position your designated goal kicker is.
Eg. Moving forward lets say we go Jordie as starting 15 and goalkicker, B Smith on the wing, B Barrett at 10.
Then if Jordie gets injured in the previous week and is replace by non-kicking Smith or Dagg.
It gets messy. Like M Cooper as a goal kicking 12 in 1993, gets injured and misses test 2 of the tour and we have a 19 year old winger and part time kicker in his second test taking the kicks (and losing).
Or Spencer/McDonald/Umaga muddle of 2003.
But at least their pros now, and whoever starts at 10 isn't Spencer or Goldie levels of goal kicking horrendousness.
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Or maybe Jordie (and DMac) need to learn to play wing. Its not like Dagg was a specialist or experienced winger when they put him there.
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@DMX What happened when Cruden came on in Test 3? Did Jordie go to wing (or Beaudie) ?
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If moving forward. The selectors decide they want get a bit funky with their non-10 goalkicking solutions.
Their is hope that both J Barret and DMac are the 2 best U25 fullbacks in the country. So it might be smooth.
Assuming DMac become test match level. -
@KiwiMurph said in Goalkicker:
@DMX What happened when Cruden came on in Test 3? Did Jordie go to wing (or Beaudie) ?
Jordie went to 14.
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I think a good stat or measure would be to see what percentage of kicks they miss which are deemed easy compared to medium and hard if that makes sense.
Beauden seems to miss kicks that other top kickers get 99% of the time. I can understand kickers missing the hard kicks but missing the easy ones is not what you want in tight games.
Do our players spend less time practicing kicking as they are too busy working moves and doing attacking drills?
It would be interesting to know how much time the best kickers spend each week on their own practicing.
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@chimoaus yeah that's what has been frustrating with Beauden. His overall percentage is pretty good, as people have pointed out, but he's missed some really straightforward kicks that have proved costly.
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@No-Quarter That is what made Carter such a gun kicker in test matches. Not so much the overall % but that he almost always nailed the kicks he had to make.
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Heard someone saying Beauden is working through a technical difficulty and is making progress - if so well and good. I think he's got worse as a kicker over the past couple of years - when he started out he seemed to have an eye like a dead fish.
Seems to me that Cruden has also deteriorated during a similar timeframe. Sopoaga seems pretty good, Jordie and DMac are good, but Richie Mo'unga isn't really in the top flight bracket.
In the immediate future it's probably not going to be too much of an issue. It's only the odd close test match that it really matters - where Beauden might kick you 4/6 and Jordie would kick 5/6. So you have to work out whether that extra three points is worth shifting Ben Smith to the wing to accommodate Jordie.
You can probably mix it up for the next couple of seasons as Jordie is edged into the team and Ben, Israel and Jules begin to be edged out. Mainly, I'd think on current form - Jordie can probably do the kicking when he starts - assuming that his next test isn't a Bledisloe decider or similar. I'd imagine, though, they'll be looking to ease him into the team a bit more with some games off the bench.
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@Chris-B. said in Goalkicker:
Heard someone saying Beauden is working through a technical difficulty and is making progress - if so well and good. I think he's got worse as a kicker over the past couple of years - when he started out he seemed to have an eye like a dead fish.
Seems to me that Cruden has also deteriorated during a similar timeframe. Sopoaga seems pretty good, Jordie and DMac are good, but Richie Mo'unga isn't really in the top flight bracket.
In the immediate future it's probably not going to be too much of an issue. It's only the odd close test match that it really matters - where Beauden might kick you 4/6 and Jordie would kick 5/6. So you have to work out whether that extra three points is worth shifting Ben Smith to the wing to accommodate Jordie.
You can probably mix it up for the next couple of seasons as Jordie is edged into the team and Ben, Israel and Jules begin to be edged out. Mainly, I'd think on current form - Jordie can probably do the kicking when he starts - assuming that his next test isn't a Bledisloe decider or similar. I'd imagine, though, they'll be looking to ease him into the team a bit more with some games off the bench.
This. I think somehow someone got a hold of him and fucked him up. I'm not sure whether it was the prior kicking coach or the current one, but all of the AB 10s are looking like worse kickers in the last few years. That seems to be coaching problem to me.
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@gt12 you'd think with Grant Fox in the coaching ranks, our kickers should be on the money, as he seems all over the mechanics of the kicking motion and routine, although maybe he is not having input there (or is and that is the issue?)
Do have a wee chuckle at Biggar and Farrells pre-kick routine, but hey, if it works, roll with it!
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2017 Super Rugby season stats (kicking)
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That's an interesting stat board. Cruden is hopeless!!
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Wonder if Gats Snr gives Gats Jnr shit about being crap at kicking....
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Particularly interesting to look at the conversions column, because it seems reasonable to assume people have a relatively similar distribution of hard and easy kicks.
Penalties - different teams have different policies on when they kick for goal vs kick into the corner.
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The key one in there is the number of conversions that Barrett misses.
They aren't always out wide*, so he's clearly losing his team points by not being a better kicker - not just point scoring opportunities (i.e., PGs where he is still way below what he should be to be considered WC). I think that shows us that Sopoaga as the new back up is a good thing. With the game on the line, he probably should be given the tee - he's proved in the past that he has the temperament to kick the big ones.
- I went to http://goalkickers.co.za/ and set the filter to Barrett for Super Rugby 2016 (-21) then the Rugby Championship (-13). From looking at those, he's missing a number of kicks he clearly should get - especially a number of kicks in the middle of the park. Comparing to Lima, Barrett missed about twice as many 'gettable' kicks (from my observation of the Super numbers for 2016, Barrett missed about 11 while Lima missed about 5).
As @Chris-B mentioned, he used to be a better kicker, so I think he can become world class in this area - but he clearly isn't right now and I think it should be the number one area for him to work on. I feel like Hansen disregards it a bit - but we can't always win by scoring more tries if we don't turn them into sevens. We've been super lucky having Carter - who wasn't that much better, but was super clutch.
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If Jordie Barrett is only kicking at 75% then why would you make him the goal kicker? Beauden is at something like 70% for his career. I doubt you are going to throw Jordie in the deep end if he is only 5% deeper. One thing I have noticed from watching the goal kicking stats from season to season is that players have good and bad seasons. Cruden, Sopoaga and West I think have all had 80% seasons but then they turn around and have a 70% season.
I think ideally if Beauden can get his kicking percentage up to 75 then that is good enough. If Jordie is going to be in the team long term (this will probably mean either or Dagg or Ben Smith isn't) then he should definitely be looked at. Beauden's problems are with his technique IMO.
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IIRC during the game they showed Farrell's kicking stats and his test career stats is only around 70-75%.
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I'd rather have Jordie's 75%. I don't have any trust in BB's kicking. He misses from in front too often and doesn't really have that much range. He could always start taking them if Jordie was struggling too.
Overall, I think right now Barrett just isn't world class in that area, and it's the one area of the game where the ABs don't have a player close to being the best in the world. That drives me nuts.
We were so lucky to have Carter for so long, who was world class (maybe not the best, but clearly world class). One of the nice things about the goal kickers site is that they use a formula (which we could argue about) that also involves things like importance within the game and kick difficulty. Carter was still a positive influence when those other factors were accounted for:
In Barrett's case, this has been a work on for a few years, and it's going to be very hard for him to go on to be considered a great 10 without him improving that side of his game.
My way of looking at it is whether I'd allow him to kick for my life, and of the team members assembled for the final test, I'd rather have Jordie that BB if that is the case. Dan Carter could be relied upon to make the big ones, so he's my leading kiwi on that metric.
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Maybe JB should kick the easy kicks from in front, and BB can take the kicks from out wide..
Problem solved..
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I know there has been mention that Beauden has some technical things he is working on and there are few on here that consider his problems are technical rather than psychological, but from personal experience I think his problems could very well be psychological. I, and a number of other goal kickers I have spoken to over the years, always found the 'easier' kicks the hardest. You know you are expected to get the ones out front and this adds pressure. Kicks that you are not expected to get are like a free shot. There is bugger all expectation.
I always found the kicks out front between the 10 metre line and midway between the 22 and the 10 metre line the hardest of all. My memory tells me Beauden missed a few from around that mark the last couple of weeks?
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I was watching BB practice his goal kicking from in front at Eden Park. One hit the post and the others missed.
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@gt12 I don't think that a 10 needs to kick goals to be considered a great 10. Anyone can kick. A 10 who sets up tries, makes breaks, and kicks his side out of trouble can be great without being a goalkicker. However, I don't think Barrett is close to Carter in the great stakes.
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@Bovidae said in Goalkicker:
I was watching BB practice his goal kicking from in front at Eden Park. One hit the post and the others missed.
The ones that are on the left side appear to be the problem. He has a natural hook and it often starts straight and then hooks to the left upright.
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@ACT-Crusader He was kicking towards the posts at the West stand end and the ball hit the right upright.
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I agree with that, unless they are the primary goal kicker. Then, to be a great, IMO, they have to be world class at that role too.
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Would be great if Jordie could take the kicks and just let Beauden be Beauden. That also means him bloody staying at 10 for the entire damn game. Moving him to fb at that stage of the game makes zero sense.
IMHO a truly great 10 also kicks the goals so BB might have to settle for being a very good 10 rather than a great.
What I would find interesting is BB's kicking stats overseas vs NZ. Iirc he kicked well on the EOYT and in Argentina. Ironically he seems to kick like shit at home.
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JB. Kid is a star in the making. I have no confidence in BB consistently hitting 80% which is the required international standard.
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I don't see any reason why we shouldn't expect/demand that both Barretts, Sopoaga and even Dagg to up their overall goal kicking games.
Hansen has been ambivalent to it and there has been no focus on it, we don't even have a dedicated skills coach for it - is it really that hard to get Daryl Halligan in to do sessions with these boys?
Hansen often talks about constantly resetting standards and improving constantly. How about setting the goal for having the best goal kicking come the next world cup and invest time/effort into that?
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if you're a professional player, and as coordinated as these guys are, you shouldn't be missing kicks from in front. it's as simple as that. so do the work required. better still have 3 or 4 guys do the work. every day, together. then whoever is best gets the gig on game day.
position is totally irrelevant to goal kicking. playing 10 means you need to be able to kick from hand, nothing else.
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Teaching my 8 year old son how to kick goals yesterday and I smacked a couple over from out near half way (albeit pretty much straight in front) and he asked why I didn't kick for the all blacks. Could only offer up that I can't tackle for Shit. Also slow, unfit and couldn't throw a skip pass to save myself
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@JK nah mate, you were robbed!
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@JK said in Goalkicker:
Could only offer up that I can't tackle for Shit. Also slow, unfit and couldn't throw a skip pass to save myself
Well on the basis of those skills I've got a contract to play wing for the Hurricanes (upgrade on Savea), start from there and you can work your way into AB contention.
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If you are missing these ones out in front, then it is more likely a minor technique flaw.
Fox has often mention similarities in the mechanics of a golf swing and kicking the ball, mental strength can help overcome poor technique, but when things go wrong, the flaws in your technique get exaggerated.
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Can somebody pls refresh my (fast-fading) memory...
When DC started as AB he was a centre, but mostly a bench replacement... did he ever start a test match at centre? And if so, was he primary goalkicker? (Making me think a player doesn't have to be a 10 or 15 to shot for goal. Piri wasn't shithot as a goalkicker either, but we gave him the job when required.)
Also makes me think about how Frano Botica, who was a BB of his day, wasn't getting selected over Fox, who wasn't nearly the magician that Botica was but had a golden boot and a match-winner.
(Later irony of course Frano jumped code and became one of very best League kickers.)
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@Salacious-Crumb said in Goalkicker:
Can somebody pls refresh my (fast-fading) memory...
When DC started as AB he was a centre, but mostly a bench replacement... did he ever start a test match at centre? And if so, was he primary goalkicker? (Making me think a player doesn't have to be a 10 or 15 to shot for goal. Piri wasn't shithot as a goalkicker either, but we gave him the job when required.)
Also makes me think about how Frano Botica, who was a BB of his day, wasn't getting selected over Fox, who wasn't nearly the magician that Botica was but had a golden boot and a match-winner.
(Later irony of course Frano jumped code and became one of very best League kickers.)
DC's 3 or 4 first test starts were all at second five (which I assume that's what you mean by centre).
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@Salacious-Crumb and then jumped back and was knocking them over from everywhere.
His massive improvement coincided with the legalization of kicking tees. Whether that allowed him to improve a technical deficiency, gave him a psychological boost or a bit of both we will never know but if he had started out kicking the way he ended it would be a case of Fox who?
Definitely a salient lesson for anyone to work on their weaknesses.
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@Nepia said in Goalkicker:
DC's 3 or 4 first test starts were all at second five (which I assume that's what you mean by centre).
Yup. Did he place-kick or was that Carlos?
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@Salacious-Crumb said in Goalkicker:
@Nepia said in Goalkicker:
DC's 3 or 4 first test starts were all at second five (which I assume that's what you mean by centre).
Yup. Did he place-kick or was that Carlos?
Carter primarily, he also had a test there outside Donald back in 2008 when they were trying to bring him along.
McAlister also had a couple of turns kicking from 12 where he was preferred to Evans & Delany. Evans kicked from fullback over McAlister in the 2007 RWC so not sure what was going on there.
Ben Blair was preferred to Spencer on the Cantablacks tour test against England.
Aside from those and the aforementioned MacDonald I don't think we've had a non-10 as the primary kicker in the pro era.
edit: and of course Weepu in the 2011 RWC QF/SF and Cruden's debut test a year earlier.
