Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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@antipodean given the quality of some of the NZ coaches over the years, didn't hinder players then is that really so much of a big deal?
The only issue would be these AB camps they are having which would probably be a roadblock with other Unions.
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I don't see any advantage in allowing guys to play in SA or Aus. You might save a small amount on the Super rugby component of their salary but you would lose a lot of control over playing time, coaching and fitness. It would also weaken the NZ sides which isn't a good thing.
It's not as if we have an over supply of AB quality players who we can't fit into our sides. -
@taniwharugby said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
THe ONLY change I'd make to the eligibility rules (if there was one to be made) would be around allowing them to select players playing in an Aus or SA super team, but I'd only allow those who have a min of say 10 caps the option.
Why?
I prefer that each country use their own players in their own teams and can't see much benefit to the rule change.
The one thing I might consider is a temporary exemption for a couple of people to play for the Sunwolves in an effort to help build their competitiveness - but, probably not.
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@chris-b didn't say I was in favour of it, just that if they were to make a change, this would be where I could see a slim chance of it working and not killing off NZ Rugby, which would happen if they picked form anywhere.
I guess the theory is if they play for a SA team and are still eligible for ABs is better than if they head to Toulon and are not...although I guess playing for a SA/Aus/Argie/Japanese team doesn't alter the biggest issue for the SH players vs the NH counterparts - travel.
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@nzzp said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@antipodean said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@taniwharugby I disagree given what appears to be the quality of their coaching.
Yep, coaching generally not as good at the moment, but woudl you exclude someone? Frees up someone like Adam Thompson to play for the Reds, but still be available for All Blacks
Yes I would. No control over the workload, etc. I'd say it would be a different issue if we were in the position of Australia, importing talent and still being quite shite.
But if you let players leave en masse from the environment, then you remove those dictating the standards.
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The greatest rugby team you never saw the nearly men – NZ Herald
A rugby team only diehard rugby fans ever saw play but had All Black legends Jonah Lomu and Jeff Wilson. 25 years on, its legacy is poignant and enduring – NZ Herald exclusive feature.
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@cgrant said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I totally agree with Gregor Paul, it would be pure madness as we would see tens of ABs or future ABs leaving the country. See what happened to Brazilians in soccer. They have lost their aura and aren't feared any more. Their national team is far from being above the others now. And what about Super Rugby ? The NZ derbies would look like Mitre 10 Cup games !
As an aside, Super rugby as a competition has been broken for a few years, so that’s hardly something to hold on to.
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@act-crusader said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@cgrant said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I totally agree with Gregor Paul, it would be pure madness as we would see tens of ABs or future ABs leaving the country. See what happened to Brazilians in soccer. They have lost their aura and aren't feared any more. Their national team is far from being above the others now. And what about Super Rugby ? The NZ derbies would look like Mitre 10 Cup games !
As an aside, Super rugby as a competition has been broken for a few years, so that’s hardly something to hold on to.
Super rugby may be broken in terms of competition structure but having strong NZ super rugby teams is major reason the ABs are so strong.
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@pukunui said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@act-crusader said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@cgrant said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I totally agree with Gregor Paul, it would be pure madness as we would see tens of ABs or future ABs leaving the country. See what happened to Brazilians in soccer. They have lost their aura and aren't feared any more. Their national team is far from being above the others now. And what about Super Rugby ? The NZ derbies would look like Mitre 10 Cup games !
As an aside, Super rugby as a competition has been broken for a few years, so that’s hardly something to hold on to.
Super rugby may be broken in terms of competition structure but having strong NZ super rugby teams is major reason the ABs are so strong.
But that’s a chicken and egg situation. I doubt all our top players are staying in NZ to play Super rugby. I would hazard a guess it’s because they are AB eligible when they do.
What are the benefits of Super rugby other than some TV rights money....
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@act-crusader said in [Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks]
But that’s a chicken and egg situation. I doubt all our top players are staying in NZ to play Super rugby. I would hazard a guess it’s because they are AB eligible when they do.
What are the benefits of Super rugby other than some TV rights money....
Um, decent rugby from time to time.
What do you suggest we watch instead? There's a decent game in the 6N sometimes, but I watched two of the French games unfortunately instead this year, which makes any Super Rugby look good.
Heineken Cup is OK, but awkward timing.
Some schoolboy rugby is OK, but I don't like getting wet and cold.
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@canefan said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
The greatest rugby team you never saw the nearly men – NZ Herald
A rugby team only diehard rugby fans ever saw play but had All Black legends Jonah Lomu and Jeff Wilson. 25 years on, its legacy is poignant and enduring – NZ Herald exclusive feature.
That’s a great story
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@act-crusader said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@pukunui said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@act-crusader said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@cgrant said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I totally agree with Gregor Paul, it would be pure madness as we would see tens of ABs or future ABs leaving the country. See what happened to Brazilians in soccer. They have lost their aura and aren't feared any more. Their national team is far from being above the others now. And what about Super Rugby ? The NZ derbies would look like Mitre 10 Cup games !
As an aside, Super rugby as a competition has been broken for a few years, so that’s hardly something to hold on to.
Super rugby may be broken in terms of competition structure but having strong NZ super rugby teams is major reason the ABs are so strong.
But that’s a chicken and egg situation. I doubt all our top players are staying in NZ to play Super rugby. I would hazard a guess it’s because they are AB eligible when they do.
What are the benefits of Super rugby other than some TV rights money....
Yeah and if you take away the egg there is no chicken. I don't really get what point you are trying to make.
The benefit of Super rugby is that our top 150 odd players get exposed to a high level of competition on a regular basis. Especially in the NZ derby matches which are probably the closest thing you can get to a test match without being a test.
They also get exposed to different styles of play from the SA and Aust teams and more recently the Argies.So yeah Super rugby is a vital part of the system that creates a strong AB team even if fans do find that the competition structure makes no sense.
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@canefan said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
The greatest rugby team you never saw the nearly men – NZ Herald
A rugby team only diehard rugby fans ever saw play but had All Black legends Jonah Lomu and Jeff Wilson. 25 years on, its legacy is poignant and enduring – NZ Herald exclusive feature.
A bloody good read, some good comments about the Black Jersey being more important than money etc.
The question is why do some players stay and others go? I suspect in Richie's case he did not need the money so there wasn't a lot of temptation in that regard. Whilst the money would have been attractive to Carter Its possible he wanted the challenge of playing in a different country and wanted to experience the culture etc. He was very wealthy prior to playing overseas so I doubt it was purely financial.
In regards to Lima we would need to know what he earns in a year in NZ compared to overseas. This would enable us to see just how big a difference it is and whether this was a major factor.
Is there someway for NZ to subsidise or raise revenue to pay rugby players extra? Does this already happen? Is it in the nations interest to keep the AB's strong by keeping the players here? This may also raise the question of how much is enough? Top level players already earn far more than any average person.
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@chimoaus I saw a headline a week or 2 back where there was someone suggesting they follow a similar model to Ireland for sports stars, whereby when they retire they get a portion of thier taxes back.
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@taniwharugby That's actually a good way to keep talent within the country. Not restricted to just one industry either. Another superannuation route.
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@taniwharugby said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chimoaus I saw a headline a week or 2 back where there was someone suggesting they follow a similar model to Ireland for sports stars, whereby when they retire they get a portion of thier taxes back.
Interesting, I guess the issues you will run into is why should they get a tax break and not the rest of us. Shame we don't have some billionaire Sheikh that is willing to fund the AB's.
I see Canada have legalised Cannabis, perhaps NZ could do the same and use the taxes to fund the AB's
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@chimoaus found it
I think the way to get more on board is to make it wider than just rugby.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12005766
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All Blacks coach Steve Hansen rules out interest in England job
New Zealand head coach Steve Hansen has ruled out the possibility of succeeding Eddie Jones as England boss. Hansen's All Blacks contract expires after the next World Cup with his future beyond Japan 2019 undecided but the 58-year-old is adamant he will not take charge of another international side if he does step down. Jones is tied to England, who finished fifth in this year's Six Nations, until 2021 after signing a two-year extension in January that is subject to a break clause dependent on performance at the global showpiece. "I can say I won't be coaching England," Hansen told BBC Radio 5 Live's Sportsweek program. "If I was going to stay coaching international rugby then I'd stay coaching the All Blacks. It's a massive time commitment no matter what team you're with. "It would have to be right for the family and the team. If it's not right for both those parties, it wouldn't be right for me to go off and coach someone else. I'd rather stay and do it in New Zealand if it was right. "I don't know what I'll do when the day comes for me to finish but coaching is in my blood. "I'll probably be coaching until the day I die. Whether that's in England, we'll have to wait and see." Successive defeats to Scotland, France and Ireland have registered England's worst Championship performance since 1987 but Hansen believes they have suffered from providing the bulk of the squad for last summer's British and Irish Lions tour to New Zealand. Hansen and Jones will go head to head on November 10 in the second of the four autumn internationals staged at Twickenham this year. "You don't want to be panicking too much up there. England are a good rugby side," Hansen said. -
*One leading agent and other astute rugby minds believe the easiest way to immediately let heat out of the market is to select All Blacks from abroad.
This view is based on the premise that selecting only from within New Zealand fuels desire for Kiwi players as they are available for full seasons in Europe. While Premiership clubs must release local test players for the Six Nations, June and November international windows, contracted All Blacks continue playing.*
I reckon this is rubbish.
They've gone on to list just six players who are overseas who might be called up to the ABs if the rules were relaxed - of which only Cruden and arguably Piutau are certainties. There's literally hundreds of others who wouldn't be protected.
I'd put three things on the table - (i) leaning heavily on the other international unions to more heavily restrict the number of overseas players teams are allowed to field in their club competitions; (ii) NZR writing more heavily binding contracts for young players at the start of their careers, when NZR has more power and the players less; and (iii) ostracizing traitors who fuck off for cash when their country needs them.
