The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...
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Alright folks, the idea of this thread is not to degenerate the left (which it could easily go down without too much help). But I wouldn't mind some assistance into the way that the hardcore lefties think. Basically, for family sanity.
My sister is a hardcore lefty. Works in the social service side for the govt, and pretty much so typifies everything that the hardcore stand for. Anyway, all a side note. What I'm looking for is some direct thoughts on this:
A couple of months ago Anika Moa had her "am I not white or male enough for you" moment. I chucked it on a family social network group simply stating that criticism of tattoos is not about being white or male and therefore she had no such point. It's what I'd call a typical lefty thing to do - assign a position to those you don't agree with that they did not take.
Anyway, after a bit of debate, which went nowhere I deleted it as people were just getting too wound up - after what I thought was a pretty innocuous sort of question. So it all rared it's ugly head again on Saturday night. I reiterated my stance, and BOOM, the left beast awoke! I was told I was wrong and there was "no point even discussing it with me as I'll never understand". So I pushed it ... I think my exact words were "You are right, I don't understand why I'm wrong, but I'm happy to have it explained to me" ... at which point the answer was "You'll never understand because you don't want to understand something that isn't your point of view. It's a waste of mine or yours time to debate it ... you are simply wrong and thats that". At which point, mother interjected and ended the convo.
So ... open forum. Why am I wrong? Why is me saying that Anika Moa saying "am I not white or male enough" is a nonsensical or logical argument for criticism of here tattoos?
I really would like to understand this, not a shit stirring thread.
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Btw if you ever stray into the gender pay gap debate with her simply ask why unemployment amongst men isn’t absolutely massive if you can employ a woman with the same experience and qualifications as a man and pay her 25% less . Every business would lay off all their male staff and save a fortune in wages .
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@jegga said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
Saying you wouldn’t understand or you’re too white or male is a way of shutting down debate because they don’t have a leg to stand on .
Yeah, I'm aware of that. But that isn't what she thinks. Hence, starting this thread ..
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@mn5 said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
@jegga being the first to reply on a thread about Anika Moa is about as safe a bet as Trump triggering a lefty.
I didn’t mention the fact I despise her in ways I can’t put words to this time though.
See I’ve moved on a bit . -
@majorrage said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
@jegga said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
Saying you wouldn’t understand or you’re too white or male is a way of shutting down debate because they don’t have a leg to stand on .
Yeah, I'm aware of that. But that isn't what she thinks. Hence, starting this thread ..
All bullshit aside I don’t see this ending up in a civil discussion with her since she’s got an entrenched position with absolutely nothing to defend it with so she probably just lash out in some way .and potentially cause some bad blood between you.
I say this as someone who has three sisters , a sociopath for a mother and I strongly suspect my ex wife is the anti christ .
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It's a pretty difficult problem to solve. And I'll say now that the radical right are just as difficult to reason with, though their ideas are nowhere near as prevalent in the mainstream.
I think to try and understand the hardcore lefts stance you need to look at the philosophy behind it, and the filter with which they view the world through.
Obviously the basic philosophy is Marxism - the idea that there is a constant power struggle between classes. They basically simplify complex society down to nothing more than a power struggle, and then pit people against each other.
Now since the majority of people in capitalist societies are actually bloody wealthy and living great lives by historical standards, the idea of an oppressed working class proletariat vs the ruling class bourgeoisie doesn't really hold water anymore. So they've changed it up and now break down society based on immutable human characteristics - race, gender, sexuality etc. This is where terms like Cultural Marxism, Identity Politics and Intersectionality have been coined to describe the modern day radical left.
Based on that they have built a power-based heirarchy in their heads of which straight white males sit at the very top - that is where Moa's comment came from.
When talking to someone that views the world through the lens of power based on immutable human characteristics, it becomes nigh on impossible to reason with them, particularly if you are a straight white male, as ridiculous as that is.
I don't think a lot of people actually understand the ideas that underpin the radical left, and the reason their ideas have been able to spread is through narcissistic virtue signalers on social media that want to be seen as holier than thou. Useful idiots really for a political ideology they don't understand and don't care to understand as all that matters to them is likes and shares.
No easy answer to reasoning with people that appear almost possesed by these ideas. I feel like I'm pushing shit up hill with a stick. My wife on the other hand grew up in poverty, is a black woman, is now successful in her career, and does not buy into any of this nonsense so is probably far more likely to have an impact on people like that.
Anyway that's my 2c, not sure it helps you in your predicament much, but I applaud you for trying to engage given how polarized this debate has become.
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@majorrage said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
Alright folks, the idea of this thread is not to degenerate the left (which it could easily go down without too much help). But I wouldn't mind some assistance into the way that the hardcore lefties think. Basically, for family sanity.
My sister is a hardcore lefty. Works in the social service side for the govt, and pretty much so typifies everything that the hardcore stand for. Anyway, all a side note. What I'm looking for is some direct thoughts on this:
A couple of months ago Anika Moa had her "am I not white or male enough for you" moment. I chucked it on a family social network group simply stating that criticism of tattoos is not about being white or male and therefore she had no such point. It's what I'd call a typical lefty thing to do - assign a position to those you don't agree with that they did not take.
Anyway, after a bit of debate, which went nowhere I deleted it as people were just getting too wound up - after what I thought was a pretty innocuous sort of question. So it all rared it's ugly head again on Saturday night. I reiterated my stance, and BOOM, the left beast awoke! I was told I was wrong and there was "no point even discussing it with me as I'll never understand". So I pushed it ... I think my exact words were "You are right, I don't understand why I'm wrong, but I'm happy to have it explained to me" ... at which point the answer was "You'll never understand because you don't want to understand something that isn't your point of view. It's a waste of mine or yours time to debate it ... you are simply wrong and thats that". At which point, mother interjected and ended the convo.
So ... open forum. Why am I wrong? Why is me saying that Anika Moa saying "am I not white or male enough" is a nonsensical or logical argument for criticism of here tattoos?
I really would like to understand this, not a shit stirring thread.
You are arguing the wrong thing, you dont argue what she is saying, you state your position and make her qrgue against it. In this situation it should be pretty simple.
State clearly that you are against judging people on who they are, not what group they belong to, state clearly that you think black people, women, gays, Muslims and everyone else should be based on who they are, not on what group they belong to. Make sure you only use examples she can relate to at this stage. She will be forced to agree with that, or make herself look like a homophobic Islamophobic bigot, white supremacist. Does she really think black people are all the same????
So once you get her to agree to that, just insert that being judged on gender is also wrong, men arent superior at anything just because they are men .. for example.
Then it is just a very short hop to making the assertion that making negative assertions about whiteness, or maleness is exactly the same and just as wrong.
If she tries the 'lived experiences' line, just accept it as a truism, and dont argue it, but just remind her that lived experiences are intrinsic to every living being and not an argument for identity politics.
Note, you have at no stage disagreed with her, just led her down a path of seeing that whilst the left claims to believe in one set of ideals they act in a very different way.
She might if she is very desperate argue that all white men can be lumped together because of 'power' in which case you can try
a) How much power is required before personal actions and attributes no longer matter
b) Does a trailer trash white guy have more power than Barrack Obama?Just remember you are not trying to win a war, you are just planting a seed. I did it with @Rembrandt ok... I am claiming way to much credit... but let me have my fun...and delusion.
Good luck, but it wont be hard.
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It's tribalism and a knee-jerk instinct to defend one's side no matter what. Can happen on the other side as well. I'm sure there are people who will defend whatever Trump says and then slander the person calling it out as "out of touch" or something. Ultimately if you've invested so much time and energy in your own side and have become convinced of the total righteousness of that position, not even a slide show identifying every single error in minute detail will make any difference to your stance. In other words, you're dealing with fanatics and have to view them as such. Just accept that people like this exist and just move on with your life.
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Not sure you're asking the right people @MajorRage .
I reckon most of us here lean right, and even @Crucial is pretty moderate in his slightly sinister* views.
Not sure any of us can get inside the view points of the radically offended as we can't really empathize with them at all.
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- look up the origin of the word
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Thanks for all the comments / thoughts.
It would appear, if I'm reading all thoughts correctly, that my understanding of Moa's positions is correct, in that she has made a whole lot of assumptions, based on her own views, and believes that these assumptions may be represented as evidence for her position.
If this is the case, then her position is unarguable. And yet, it's me that is viewed as being wrong? Surely a court of law would also state that I'm correct too though right?
Although I guess laws were mainly made by straight white men ... logic > emotion?
I've received word that there has a been a big barney in my house too, as my Dad argued that Don Brash should have been allowed to speak at Massey ...
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Can't add much. @No-Quarter gives you the rationale and @Baron-Silas-Greenback gives you the strategy (even though he may not stick to just seed planting!), it's the war that is important not the battle.
Important things to remember is keep your calm, be logical, be fair and don't back down just to keep the peace. I've had a couple family blowouts and some very good friends and family won't speak with me any more, hell I have one cousin who is current making what he thinks are anonymous assault threats at me on his twitter because I'm apparently alt-right ..still working out the best approach to deal with that one.
As for the lefty view well, it's kind of hard to explain. Anika lives off being a victim. By claiming she is oppressed she gets a massive dopamine hit through her virtue signalling and through people who look up to her based on her level of victimhood. A mature adult TV presenter would just ignore a politely worded anti-tattoo letter from an old bloke. A 13 year old school girl with a brain still in development would not. By accepting the cult of social justice ,Anika has removed any responsibility for her life from herself and her actions and regressed back into a teenage girl with severe emotional problems, she's just throwing out 'white and male' as for some really messed up reason it is 100% acceptable to be racist against white people and sexist against men.
I really worry for young lads growing up in this world.
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I'll have a go at guessing an explanation.
@MajorRage you are correct in your view that Moa's statement was probably different to the intention of the comment that set her off. I say probably different because we don't actually know what the person who made the comment was thinking when they wrote it. Maybe they did have the opinion that she hastily concluded maybe they really were just commenting on her skin scribble looking ugly.
Moa chose to assign a position of her choosing because she thought it was the type of comment she perceives as using an easy target (her tats) to attack her in a way that the same person would not attack Mr Joe Bloggs side part normal looking white man.Over sensitive, yes. Jumping to conclusions, yes. Assigning a position, yes (although she did make her comment as a question asking if that was the writers position).
The attitude of your sister is to also jump to conclusions The perception of oppression where maybe none exists.
I agree that her 'politics' doesn't help as you describe her as the type to perceive issues of oppression quickly. Her 'leftness' looks for injustice based on race/sex/appearance that is different to those she sees as holding the high ground. Her stubbornness then entrenches that position.
Don't conflate this type of reaction with 'leftness' though. It doesn't help (as above) but it isn't confined to those of hard left views.
Exhibit A: Mrs Crucial. I often have to listen to examples of institutional and social sexism that she experiences and sometimes I wonder (but aren't stupid enough to say) how often it is perception rather than fact. She's no leftie, just a female (in a male dominated workplace). A common gripe is simply trying to get served at a bar where what she describes as 'middle aged woman invisibility' takes hold. Taller/bigger/pushier men and younger women always catch the eye of bar staff. (think how often you offer to go get the drinks because you know it will be quicker)
To answer your direct question. Moa's response is nonsensical if you take the comment and response at face value only.
If you take into account her experience and perception of what people really mean then it makes sense (although it may be incorrect).
Also others will support her stance because they too perceive a situation they think is all too common for them.I don't get why it is being assigned as a 'leftist' view though. Surely that is also assigning a position to others to make your argument?
I get that it is a behavioural trait more visible/vocal among those that try to promote an opinion stridently and that you do get plenty of that 'type' among the far left. You also get plenty of that 'type' among the far right, just that the subject matter is different. It becomes 'our views are oppressed by the left elements of power' rather than the other way around.
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Thanks - excellent response. Got some thoughts / questions for you.
@crucial said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
I'll have a go at guessing an explanation.
@MajorRage you are correct in your view that Moa's statement was probably different to the intention of the comment that set her off. I say probably different because we don't actually know what the person who made the comment was thinking when they wrote it. Maybe they did have the opinion that she hastily concluded maybe they really were just commenting on her skin scribble looking ugly.
Surely when attacking people on live TV, you can only attack the facts though right?
Moa chose to assign a position of her choosing because she thought it was the type of comment she perceives as using an easy target (her tats) to attack her in a way that the same person would not attack Mr Joe Bloggs side part normal looking white man.
But that argument is a false position. As I've read far far more negative press about Wells, than I have about Moa. Maybe thats my selective reading, but the overall slant of NZ media seems to be pro Moa, debate around Wells. So who is really the easy target?
Over sensitive, yes. Jumping to conclusions, yes. Assigning a position, yes (although she did make her comment as a question asking if that was the writers position).
The attitude of your sister is to also jump to conclusions The perception of oppression where maybe none exists.
That sounds pretty accurate to me.
I agree that her 'politics' doesn't help as you describe her as the type to perceive issues of oppression quickly. Her 'leftness' looks for injustice based on race/sex/appearance that is different to those she sees as holding the high ground. Her stubbornness then entrenches that position.
It's her chosen career, so I don't blame her for having her views, not at all. I criticise her for not debating her views with me, just stating that "I'm wrong and I'll never understand" is not an argument for me- hence the thread!
Don't conflate this type of reaction with 'leftness' though. It doesn't help (as above) but it isn't confined to those of hard left views.
Agreed. More than enough evidence across the politics forum !
Exhibit A: Mrs Crucial. I often have to listen to examples of institutional and social sexism that she experiences and sometimes I wonder (but aren't stupid enough to say) how often it is perception rather than fact. She's no leftie, just a female (in a male dominated workplace). A common gripe is simply trying to get served at a bar where what she describes as 'middle aged woman invisibility' takes hold. Taller/bigger/pushier men and younger women always catch the eye of bar staff. (think how often you offer to go get the drinks because you know it will be quicker)
Cannot relate. I have the worst bar presence in the world. I bet you anything you want Mrs Crucial gets served before me.
To answer your direct question. Moa's response is nonsensical if you take the comment and response at face value only.
If you take into account her experience and perception of what people really mean then it makes sense (although it may be incorrect).
Also others will support her stance because they too perceive a situation they think is all too common for them.Yep, got it ... but not sure how that makes me wrong though.
I don't get why it is being assigned as a 'leftist' view though. Surely that is also assigning a position to others to make your argument?
My sister will agree she's a strong lefty, so that's not up for debate. The assigning of the false position is just my view after years of this sort of debate.
I get that it is a behavioural trait more visible/vocal among those that try to promote an opinion stridently and that you do get plenty of that 'type' among the far left. You also get plenty of that 'type' among the far right, just that the subject matter is different. It becomes 'our views are oppressed by the left elements of power' rather than the other way around.
Yes, agreed. Although I find the right far more logical to debate with - again, the politics forum is full of examples of this.
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@MajorRage did you perceive from my post that I thought you were in the wrong?
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@crucial said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
@MajorRage did you perceive from my post that I thought you were in the wrong?
No, not at all ... Thought some worthy points worth a chat about tho!
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@majorrage what does your sister do for a living? Is she surrounded all day by people who would be offended by your politics? Did she qualify in an area dominated by people who believe in progressivism (teaching being the obvious example)?
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My 2c is that people occupying those fringe positions (even if they consider them moderately left/right) are going into instant battle mode as soon as a differing opinion, or even a genuine question, arises.
For the former you might argue they are taking a position of extreme topic fatigue and channeling their frustration about all their previous 'discussions' about X, Y, Z topics. So they fire up immediately, and that's not a positive thing for a genuine conversation, or being open to new or different ideas, let alone even thinking about altering their position. That's why that 'why bother, I can't even talk to you about this...' response seems to come up. Personally that is infuriating as they are further isolating themselves, and pretty much saying nothing will ever alter their position.
For the latter point I think people are so wary of trolls or troll like behaviour, that they have lost the ability to take a question at face value. And even if they entertain that it's a legit question it's hard to divorce that from some kind of agenda of wanting to trick someone or argue semantics etc. So they end up in that angry and not listening mindset.
I'm left leaning, and while I struggle sometimes with the leftard vitriol on the fern, there is a lot of it I agree with. While it can be uncomfortable it's good to have your ideas and assumptions challenged. Plus we have some sharp people (in both senses of the word!) contributing so there is a lot to learn and absorb.
I think there has been some good advice so far, but unless you can get your sister to engage in unpacking her ideas and thinking about your questions or points it'll just be the same ongoing noise imo.
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@crucial said in The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...:
Don't conflate this type of reaction with 'leftness' though. It doesn't help (as above) but it isn't confined to those of hard left views.
I agree that the far left and the far right are almost indistinguishable from each other. But Moa's position and views in general are absolutely from the radical left - this idea that anyone other than a straight white male faces oppression, and worse still assigning collective guilt to all straight white males regardless of who they are. She goes looking for racism/sexism, and when you do that it is bloody easy to find as you just equate any criticism or negative experience with it.
It's really just racism and sexism of a different flavour to the far right. The biggest problem with the radical left is their ideas are particularly pernicious - social media narcissism has contributed to this nonsense spreading but even more importantly the universities are littered with radical Marxist's whose aim is to indoctrinate as many students as possible through degrees like Gender Studies. We are also seeing it at younger levels now too. It takes a while for some of these students to unlearn what they learnt at University when they get into the real world.
Far right views are by in large very easy to dismantle, which is probably why Nazism has never ever been repeated, but Marxism/Communism still lives on today despite the absolutely disastrous track record it has - whether that be countries like North Korea, or the spread of cultural Marxism in the west, the philosophy just refuses to die.
I think one of the biggest concerns people have about the radical left ideas becoming mainstream is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Right now the far-right crowd are using the attack of straight white males as evidence that the entire left wing progressive ideology has failed and that we need to return to an ethnostate, and they have plenty of evidence to refer to this attack in mainstream media. This is not a game any of us should want to play.
